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Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

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Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#151

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. The point I am making is that a solution isn't a sol…

Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements.

I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it? I know plenty of vegans and vegetarians who say they feel better after giving up meat, so I've always figured it depends on the person.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#152
post #32
post #14

How are people on Hacker News changing their behavior around food and energy consumption? And besides individual action what community action have you taken? Personally I have found myself on a similar path to Peter Kalmus[1]. Before having kids I did what I could: didn’t own a car, commuted by bike, composted, minimized fashion/tech consumption, etc. On the other hand my career required significant plane travel for…

I adopted a mostly plant-based diet. It’s very effective in terms of impact reduction, and most people can do it easily with minimal lifestyle sacrifice (compared to things like giving up flying and driving and aircon).

Most people in the world (and probably even in the us) eat a lot of meat but never fly.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#153
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. The point I am making is that a solution isn't a sol…

From all the history I have read of civilisation, it's been grain that has been the foundation of human society as we know it, meat couldn't get us anywhere. Meat eating among the poor in European societies and derived societies is a new phenomenon at least in the idea that every meal has meat in it. Take a look outside of Europe or even within less wealthy areas of Europe and their diets are magnitudes lower in thei…

its appropriate both you and op can be right in that he said meat was essential for mankind and you say grain is foundation for society.

grain was the way civilization was enforced

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_Hist...

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts. Replace all the milk with almond milk and you’re still dealing with huge water and land use for a product that has inferior protein and nutrients. Second…

> If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts In addition to the other replies, I'd like to point out that insect farming is an often overlooked solution. But of course it's just not sexy enough for most westerners. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations: > Edible…

> In addition to the other replies, I'd like to point out that insect farming is an often overlooked solution.

What is the actual problem that needs a solution though? I feel like "but where will we get our protein from?" is a common fallacy on the subject of meat that people accept without evidence. We're eating more meat now than ever and most Americans eat too much protein:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein... "Most American adults eat about 100 grams of protein per day, or roughly twice the recommended amount."

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#155

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

Surely a portion of grazing land is also habitat to a significant amount of wildlife. Whereas large mono crops leave no room for competition and result in much death in the automated processing of crops. Not a lot of great options with billions of people to feed.

most beef is not grazed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_Animal_Feeding_Op...

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#156

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

Animal farming simply doesn't have to be so destructive. There's a simple solution to a simple problem. Look at New Zeland, regenerative agriculture. By allowing cattle to eat grass instead of grain (ha) we can avoid using pesticide and actually increase biodiversity, while planting trees as well. This increases carbon sequestration and has plenty of other benefits to the local wildlife.

In fact, it can have a positive carbon impact (well, negative, but you catch my drift).

In short, the solution: buy grass-fed or pasture raised animals.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#157
post #94
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't really know what people think is or isn't a road but these are objectively roads and I think you are understating the extent to which resource extraction activities use these roads today, and the degree to which any road, no matter how much or little used, alters the ecosystem through which it passes.

A road (dirt trail) that hasn't been in use for 100 years is not impacting the ecosystem to any extent at all.

Do you have any support for your repeated claims that the roads under discussion haven't been used for 100 years?

Virtually no forest service roads are older than 50 years old, as most were constructed after WW2 to assist in logging.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#158

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. The point I am making is that a solution isn't a sol…

> The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat.

That's not a reason to continue, especially with climate change and the impact on nature. We have new challenges now.

> Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption.

> The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have.

You offer no proof there's a problem going meat-free and major health organisations say plant-based diets are healthy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

"Well-planned vegan diets are regarded as appropriate for all stages of life, including infancy and pregnancy, by the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[f] Dietitians of Canada,[23] the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council,[24] New Zealand Ministry of Health,[25] Harvard Medical School,[26] and the British Dietetic Association.[27]"

There's lots of examples of sports people, academics, musicians etc. who are on plant based diets too to prove the point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegans

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#159

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat. Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't. Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption. The point I am making is that a solution isn't a sol…

> The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat.

Hedging language aside — i.e. "humans evolved because X to some extent" — I recently had an epiphany touring the north island of New Zealand by minibus. Productivity utterly collapses when you have to frequently move from one (temporary) settlement to another. What you eat isn't nearly as impactful as the degree to which you can be stationary.

Interestingly, primitive hunter-gatherer societies could rely upon wild game or fish for caloric intake, which was conducive to a nomadic life. There's no need for an agricultural revolution if you're OK with killing wild animals to harvest their flesh for food. But to call this instrumental in human development is I think wrong. Meat is without question the most primitive way to feed: meat consumption does not require any amount of long-term settlement nor does it require much intelligence: carnivorous animals low in general intelligence regularly kill each other in the wild for food.

Meat consumption is fundamentally a primitive adaptation. Factory farmed meat consumption is a relatively modern phenomenon driven first and foremost by human habituation to the taste of flesh. Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12.

> Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't.

Such as? Meat is a euphemism for slabs of fat and muscle tissue containing amino acids. With the exception of wild-caught fatty fish like salmon — factory farmed fatty fish contain greatly reduced levels of omega-3s — the fat is of questionable healthiness compared to vegetable sources. And if you're convinced it's necessary to consume the muscle tissue of formerly living creatures for amino acids, you'd eat insects for environmental sustainability's sake. In fact, insect exoskeletons are a rich source of dietary calcium directly comparable to dairy. The fact most of you reading this wouldn't dream of eating insects, goes to show nutritional value is not why you're eating meat. Taste is #1.

> Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption.

Citation needed.

> The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have.

Where do high-fat nuts and seeds fit in your view of "dense forms of nutrition"? E.g. gram for gram, you're getting much more calories from nuts and seeds than you're getting from low-fat muscle tissue such as chicken.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#160

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

Animal farming simply doesn't have to be so destructive. There's a simple solution to a simple problem. Look at New Zeland, regenerative agriculture. By allowing cattle to eat grass instead of grain (ha) we can avoid using pesticide and actually increase biodiversity, while planting trees as well. This increases carbon sequestration and has plenty of other benefits to the local wildlife. In fact, it can have a positi…

> In short, the solution: buy grass-fed or pasture raised animals.

It's worth noting though that for this to work we'd need to eat less meat and pay more for it because grass-fed takes much more land. The reason we have industrial animal farms with soy fed cattle is we need so much meat and we want it cheap (and countries that used to eat less meat want more meat as they get richer).

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