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Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

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Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#111

Post by RhysU »

banmeagaindan2 wrote: post #100
rhacker wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's the golden rule. I bet few people even know that.

I don't want to snipe but sometimes it's irresistible. The Golden Rule should be abandoned as an ideal. It's a Christian ideal, it's a Western ideal - I support the general effort but I think we've made a mistake. It is the sort of heuristic that works well in a smaller society but does not scale. People treat themselves badly all the time don't they. If they are motivated to do this it puts a big hole in lots of soc…

> People treat themselves badly all the time don't they.

Are we thinking of the same Golden Rule? In the more archaic form: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It says nothing about how an individual treats himself or herself. It therefore is sensible for both narcissistic and self-loathing individuals. Perhaps the rule is a little odd for masochists, but that's hardly disqualifying as a fraction of the population.

> It is the sort of heuristic that works well in a smaller society but does not scale.

The scalability is perfect in the version that I know: For everyone with which you personally interact, the overhead is like the amount of time spent with your personal circle. This is fundamentally limited to 24 hours/day of treating people in any way no matter how outgoing the individual. For everyone else, endeavor for universally applicable policies under which you would want to live.

Perhaps the breakdown that you are pointing out is that it is difficult to craft Golden-Rule-compliant policies suitable for massive nations posessing many, many unique individuals each with unique needs. I agree there, and I have my own take on how to address it. Largely, my take is how I wish others would address that particular challenge for me (ducks). Now, my policy preferences could be awful in another's eyes. But, no one must agree with my preferences as far as the rule is concerned.

> The drive to set rules to govern behaviour might be because people are control freaks.

This Golden Rule only acts from within the adherent. It is not enforced directly by any government or culture of which I know. Rather, it is about governing one's self accordingly.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#112

Post by apexalpha »

elipsey wrote: post #103

I spent several years of my life raising someone else's son "out of wedlock" with great care and devotion, while his other male family members have so much family values they have been married several times, but couldn't bother to show up. We are on good terms, and in spite of his having a "single mother" he survived to adulthood, and without the criminal record the author warns of as a consequence. This publisher is…

But if you (partly) raised him does that still make him "raised by single mother"?

Because I think any male role model invested in a kid will do, it doesn't have to be a biological parent.

In my country, despite all government intervention, the strongest statistical correlation whether someone becomes "successful" later on in life is whether they have a male father figure growing up, or not.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#113

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

elipsey wrote: post #103

I spent several years of my life raising someone else's son "out of wedlock" with great care and devotion, while his other male family members have so much family values they have been married several times, but couldn't bother to show up. We are on good terms, and in spite of his having a "single mother" he survived to adulthood, and without the criminal record the author warns of as a consequence. This publisher is…

> This publisher is operated by a conservative think tank

Ok so I'm glad we're engaging the article on the surface.

> This article furnishes no evidence that being married forces poor people to be good parents

I'm not sure that was ever said. What they're arguing is about how societal institutions like marriage have largely declined and it's happening along with other large changes in society: lack of trust, friends, etc.

And clearly from what you've said, the legal distinctions of marriage are far less important than whether there's two adults in a family raising children.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#114

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

apexalpha wrote: post #112
elipsey wrote: post #103

I spent several years of my life raising someone else's son "out of wedlock" with great care and devotion, while his other male family members have so much family values they have been married several times, but couldn't bother to show up. We are on good terms, and in spite of his having a "single mother" he survived to adulthood, and without the criminal record the author warns of as a consequence. This publisher is…

But if you (partly) raised him does that still make him "raised by single mother"? Because I think any male role model invested in a kid will do, it doesn't have to be a biological parent. In my country, despite all government intervention, the strongest statistical correlation whether someone becomes "successful" later on in life is whether they have a male father figure growing up, or not.

This is treacherous discussion. Broaching the idea that there's any biological basis for parenting, child development, etc. is pretty much verboten since it runs askew of idealism.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#115

Post by Balgair »

motohagiography wrote: post #36

As a man in my late 30s, I began to see older male relatives of my own and of friends dying of the usual things like cancer and some even of opioids, but the thing that struck me was how many of them depended on hiring the funeral home staff as fill-in pallbearers. I made it a priority to be sure that however things go, I'd like to be able to convene a party of six. One of the things I did was get involved with a fra…

https://strenuouslife.co/

Though not perfect, it's a good starting point along the lines you're talking about.

I think they have sign ups in a few weeks.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#116

Post by dvtrn »

127 wrote: post #73
courtf wrote: post #40

I expected some level of hand-wringing here in response to this article. Maybe it's something in the water in rural America, but none of this is unusual or extreme, and if this behavior is foreign to you, then you and I grew up in different circumstances. Getting together with the boys and breaking the law, pushing each other to go a little further each time, is a rite of passage all over the world. Maybe it's practi…

Drunk driving is not acceptable behavior, ever.

I want to meet the people who had a problem with this comment that they downvoted it.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#117

Post by frank2 »

dvtrn wrote: post #4

Impactful article that sums up something I think a (very comparatively young) friend of mine is going through following a divorce just before COVID hit Except does the title perhaps mean “melancholy” because I’m having a hard time finding the intrinsic nihilism as offered by the depictions within the piece. It simply labels unfortunate outcomes of certain elements of our modern experience as such and offers no episte…

Headlines need to be hyperbolic nowadays to maximize clicks, and 'rising [sadness] among young men' doesn't sound nearly as dangerous as 'rising nihilism among young men'.

I think the writer of the headline thinks that most of his or her readers are unaware of or uninterested in the philosophical connotations of 'nihilism'; to them it means 'without an enduring source of meaning', 'without enduring emotional connections' or more frighteningly 'without moral compass'.

Here is a societal process (family instability), the headline wants to imply, that makes our country more dangerous.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#118

Post by motohagiography »

Balgair wrote: post #115
motohagiography wrote: post #36

As a man in my late 30s, I began to see older male relatives of my own and of friends dying of the usual things like cancer and some even of opioids, but the thing that struck me was how many of them depended on hiring the funeral home staff as fill-in pallbearers. I made it a priority to be sure that however things go, I'd like to be able to convene a party of six. One of the things I did was get involved with a fra…

https://strenuouslife.co/ Though not perfect, it's a good starting point along the lines you're talking about. I think they have sign ups in a few weeks.

Funny, I already do most of these things in addition to some others. Adding solitary self improvement skills are a necessary start, and friendships are indeed often the effect of being useful at something. Some gaps are astronomy, which I planned to pick up as part of celestial navigation cert for sailing, and the gardening bit, as I just bailed on doing a vegetable garden.

I've seen a few of these efforts over the years, and good on them, but it's like they're trying to reconstruct Freemasonry, which already exists everywhere in the world and it is there for guys who are looking.

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#119

Post by bJGVygG7MQVF8c »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #113
elipsey wrote: post #103

I spent several years of my life raising someone else's son "out of wedlock" with great care and devotion, while his other male family members have so much family values they have been married several times, but couldn't bother to show up. We are on good terms, and in spite of his having a "single mother" he survived to adulthood, and without the criminal record the author warns of as a consequence. This publisher is…

> This publisher is operated by a conservative think tank Ok so I'm glad we're engaging the article on the surface. > This article furnishes no evidence that being married forces poor people to be good parents I'm not sure that was ever said. What they're arguing is about how societal institutions like marriage have largely declined and it's happening along with other large changes in society: lack of trust, friends,…

the provincialism and groupthink on HN is incredible

Re: Family instability fuels rising nihilism among young men

#120

Post by apexalpha »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #114
apexalpha wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you (partly) raised him does that still make him "raised by single mother"? Because I think any male role model invested in a kid will do, it doesn't have to be a biological parent. In my country, despite all government intervention, the strongest statistical correlation whether someone becomes "successful" later on in life is whether they have a male father figure growing up, or not.

This is treacherous discussion. Broaching the idea that there's any biological basis for parenting, child development, etc. is pretty much verboten since it runs askew of idealism.

I'm sorry I don't think I fully understand your comment.

Are you saying it's bad to point out that it's good to have both parents around?

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