Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#611

Post by jariel » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

lawtalkinghuman wrote: post #542

throwawaynothx wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention you require an apple machine to compile code for IOS (or rent a service that will compile it for you) - Also you need to PAY for a developer ID. Their business model is munted. All because people are sheep. They advertised to moronic uni students who like shiny things, Their parents wanted to seem hip so they got on board. I mean hell, you cant even use a cable they don't own.

Yeah, much easier to dismiss iOS users as fashion-conscious shiny-obsessed sheep rather than maybe talk to some iOS users and understand what exactly they prefer about the platform they use. Because I rather like the fact the iOS devices get OS updates for about twice as long as Android devices. Android security was also a pretty bad joke for a very long time—it has started to change, but there's only so much they ca…

This is fine, but besides the point.

30% is outrageous and basically no developers want to pay it.

Were it 10%, all those things you mention would remain the same.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#612

Post by Razengan » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #477

cafed00d wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the top 100 apps on iOS feel the same way though? Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny? I feel like it's a reasonable trade-off. Free apps don't cost you much (yes, $99 for dev tools is not much honestly. It keeps away spurious bots and spammy accounts). Paid apps cost 30% -- if the dev decides to charge outrageous prices then well, Apple will take an outrageous cut). Most ap…

"Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny?" Combined with the ambiguity, lack of choice, threats to business - absolutely yes, iOS is basically universally reviled by developers. Nobody on this planet accepts that the 30% is necessary for anything ergo, it's a massive chunk out of profits. Most companies are not hugely profitable. In many cases, Apple is making considerable more pro…

> iOS is basically universally reviled by developers.

No. No, it is not.

I am a developer, and I support iOS and Apple’s practices.

I know this comment will be buried; It’s ironic how the people supposedly championing freedom tries to bury any dissenting voices.

> In many cases, Apple is making considerable more profit off of apps than developers themselves.

Apple pays out more revenue to developers than the Play Store.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#613

Post by Razengan » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #611

lawtalkinghuman wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, much easier to dismiss iOS users as fashion-conscious shiny-obsessed sheep rather than maybe talk to some iOS users and understand what exactly they prefer about the platform they use. Because I rather like the fact the iOS devices get OS updates for about twice as long as Android devices. Android security was also a pretty bad joke for a very long time—it has started to change, but there's only so much they ca…

This is fine, but besides the point. 30% is outrageous and basically no developers want to pay it. Were it 10%, all those things you mention would remain the same.

> 30% is outrageous and basically no developers want to pay it.

Boy will your world be shook when you discover the Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo stores.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#614

Post by lillecarl » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

subsection1h wrote: post #464

lolsal wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic caused their own pain here, sure but What other way can we actually get a semi open platform that we're not being taxed on? As an Apple user, the whole point here is that it's not an open system. I just can't get riled up over a developer not following the rules of a platform. I use Apple because the Apple ecosystem is valuable to me - the store, the SSO, the Apple ID, the UI/UX, the hardware - all of it. I do…

Hacker News in 2020: Where "hackers" prefer closed systems and perceive no value in developers who don't want to "play nice" with closed systems.

It's really a can't eat the cake and have it too problem. We want hackability but we also want convenience and feeling save (Trust). On Linux dists this trust is put in the opensource developers and distro maintainers. When you need to build something yourself the source is open for you to see. Developers and maintainers take pride in their work. On the mobile platform it seems from my point of view like more development is fueled by profit. If you combine profit seeking with sideloading proprietary applications i believe the end result would cause iPhone sales to drop as their USP no longer holds true (conveniece for the everyday user not having to deal with security, trust, payment processors).

I am using Android as I've been for the last couple of years for this hackability, but i rely more on F-Droid than Play Store.

I understand both Apples and Epics point of view, standard consumer would probably be hurt by Epic getting their way while HN crowd would benefit (possibly short term only) from Epic getting their way.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a reason why Apple is doing this, and it rhymes well with what every single person i know says about the iPhone. It's simple, it just works, you know how to use it, It's convenient. All these things sound like things one can only achieve in a walled garden.

Apple does what's best for their shareholders, and what's best for their shareholders is if people stay happy with their iPhones and keep purchasing them. I'll stick to Android and all the associated spyware until there's a proper opensource alternative for day2day use and some decent music streaming service available.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#615

Post by lawtalkinghuman » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #611

lawtalkinghuman wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, much easier to dismiss iOS users as fashion-conscious shiny-obsessed sheep rather than maybe talk to some iOS users and understand what exactly they prefer about the platform they use. Because I rather like the fact the iOS devices get OS updates for about twice as long as Android devices. Android security was also a pretty bad joke for a very long time—it has started to change, but there's only so much they ca…

This is fine, but besides the point. 30% is outrageous and basically no developers want to pay it. Were it 10%, all those things you mention would remain the same.

30% is the same amount Google takes from the Play Store.

Also, OP is stating that the only reason people buy iOS is because they're some kind of idiot fashionista sheeple etc. I was merely pointing out that there are compelling reasons to prefer iOS beyond, I dunno, the magic mind-control powers of the ghost of Steve Jobs.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#616

Post by mvanbaak » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #608

mvanbaak wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Games are often very low margin products Yeah, so, did you check how much Epic earns with fortnite? I wont call this 'low margin' at all.

Profit margin is about the percentage they make after costs have been factored in. Their profit margin is indeed low; 12% of the revenue... compared to Apple who takes 30%. See https://gamerant.com/epic-games-store-revenue-split-explaine... . So my point is absolutely valid and it is shocking that Apple makes almost 3 times more money from Fortnight than Epic makes. Imagine spending years building an app and then som…

The 30% apple (and all other stores) “take” are not pure profits. They offer a lot of services that cost them money. So no, apple is not making 3 times as much.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#617

Post by anon4242 » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

cafed00d wrote: post #599

jariel wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny?" Combined with the ambiguity, lack of choice, threats to business - absolutely yes, iOS is basically universally reviled by developers. Nobody on this planet accepts that the 30% is necessary for anything ergo, it's a massive chunk out of profits. Most companies are not hugely profitable. In many cases, Apple is making considerable more pro…

Ok, I can see that my opinion is getting super-downvoted. But I genuinely fail to understand why developers' opinions should be treated with so much reverence. It sounds to me like the _only_ reason developers are clamoring against the App Store is because some fraction of developers are unhappy about a high commission. It's on the same lines are some people out there unhappy about Apple's high prices. In both cases,…

> Pay software engineers on their payroll to help Spotify sell music on the iPod (oops; I mean iPhone)?

Well, Microsoft did that, they developed the Spotify app for Windows Phone back in the day.

> I am sincerely trying to understand _why_ would any developer _need_ to take this expense if they cannot afford it? Can't you develop a web app instead?

I guess because such a large portion of phone users use iPhone, not developing for iOS means you remove yourself from competing about not only those customers but others as well. Say you develop a chat app (fat chance of that now but anyways), a large portion of Android users will say "It's nice and all but because some of my friends have iPhones I want to be able to chat with them as well."

So quite simply, you need to be where the customers are and customers want native apps not web apps. They don't want to open Safari or Chrome or Firefox, type in a URL and some login credentials. It's too much of a nuisance. So if you don't write a native app some one else will and then they take all your customers...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#618

Post by anon4242 » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #378

fxtentacle wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

> I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. It seems to be hurting them more than Apple: Epic Games Asks Court to Allow Fortnite Back on the App Store: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/05/epic-injuction-fortnite... > Meanwhile, Epic now has a very good reason to collect a working email address from every past iOS customer One of the biggest reason I love using Sign-In Wi…

> One of the biggest reason I love using Sign-In With Apple is so that I don't have to give my email to any one else.

I have an infinite supply of email addresses so I can give a unique one to whoever asks and then kill it if it's abused. This way I don't have to tell Apple whenever I logon to Epic or fear that Apple will revoke my access to Epic because of a random adolescent outburst not really befitting of a company of that size.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#619

Post by cryptica » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

mvanbaak wrote: post #616

cryptica wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit margin is about the percentage they make after costs have been factored in. Their profit margin is indeed low; 12% of the revenue... compared to Apple who takes 30%. See https://gamerant.com/epic-games-store-revenue-split-explaine... . So my point is absolutely valid and it is shocking that Apple makes almost 3 times more money from Fortnight than Epic makes. Imagine spending years building an app and then som…

The 30% apple (and all other stores) “take” are not pure profits. They offer a lot of services that cost them money. So no, apple is not making 3 times as much.

Apple's offering is a lot simpler and a lot more hands-off. I doubt their costs are very high and if they are, they're probably wasting the money because I can't see what's so complex about the Apple App store... And I'm a developer so I know that operating at that scale comes with challenges but it really doesn't compare to the challenges which the creators of Fortnight must face on a daily basis.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#620

Post by jariel » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

lawtalkinghuman wrote: post #615

jariel wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine, but besides the point. 30% is outrageous and basically no developers want to pay it. Were it 10%, all those things you mention would remain the same.

30% is the same amount Google takes from the Play Store. Also, OP is stating that the only reason people buy iOS is because they're some kind of idiot fashionista sheeple etc. I was merely pointing out that there are compelling reasons to prefer iOS beyond, I dunno, the magic mind-control powers of the ghost of Steve Jobs.

"30% is the same amount Google takes from the Play Store."

Except that developers don't need to use the App Store a sales/distribution mechanism.

It's like saying "In one country, there is only one car, and it is $50 000". In another country, the same car exists, and yes, there are other $50 000 cars ... but there are also any number of other choices.

And FYI even Google is engaging in anticompetitive practices.

Both platforms should be required to allow the installation of any app vendor point they want as the default app store.