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Emacs is special regarding UIs

lists.gnu.org

81–90 of 418 posts

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#81
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After finding doom-emacs, I love that even more. Almost instant startup, non-broken magit key bindings, doom doctor etc. https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs

It seems like doom-emacs is the new way to go. I feel quiet sad about this cause I spent some time to switch to Spacemacs and now I have to move to another emacs distro.

Why do you have to move? Are you using the dev-branch Spacemacs or master?

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#82
post #73
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shift away from X11 means no more forwarding X11 applications over ssh, which is slow at best and buggy and insecure at worst. A small price to pay for eliminating tearing and actually-secure screen locking. There are valid criticisms of the move to Wayland but I don’t really think this is one of them; if you really need remote access to graphical applications you almost certainly should not be using X forwarding…

> The shift away from X11 means no more forwarding X11 applications over ssh, which is slow at best and buggy and insecure at worst. Yes but sometimes you really need that and it's a life saver. EDIT: I just remembered about LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project) which many schools used to lower the TCO of computing infrastructure. That relied heavily on Xorg's network transparency. I wonder what will happen to LTSP

Honestly, I think people's reliance on X forwarding is just due to the fact that it happens to exist, not because they really need it. There's nothing like X forwarding on Windows to my knowledge. If X forwarding didn't exist people would have figured out how to do what they needed over SSH with text or when GUI's are irreplaceable sysadmins would have set up an actual remote desktop solution like on other modern operating systems.

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#83
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shift away from X11 means no more forwarding X11 applications over ssh, which is slow at best and buggy and insecure at worst. A small price to pay for eliminating tearing and actually-secure screen locking. There are valid criticisms of the move to Wayland but I don’t really think this is one of them; if you really need remote access to graphical applications you almost certainly should not be using X forwarding…

That means no Linux GUI apps on Windows + WSL2. Sounds like a niche, but I see many devs using Windows + WSL2 + X forwarding to develop under Linux.

I am not sure why desktop Linux experience should suffer to make WSL work? Microsoft has the wide pockets to make it work if they need to.

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#84
What's the difference between what's being described here and the web?

(In particular, Electron-based local applications which of course have a cross-platform web-based UI.)

I'm not saying they aren't different, at the very least, Emacs prioritizes text, while the web prioritizes multimedia. But I'd love to hear other peoples takes on the differences.

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#85
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant old-school pure HTML forms, not a HTML5 app with JavaScript+Canvas (or even wasm+Canvas). With the later, you could in principle compile GNU Emacs to JavaScript or wasm, using e.g. emscripten. (I don't know if anyone has succeeded in that yet, but I think it would be in principle achievable.) Old-school pure HTML forms actually has a lot conceptually in common with block mode terminals such as IBM 3270. The s…

No, I am specifically not talking about this. I'm actually not sure at this point what you mean - I have a vision of somebody communicating with an emacs backend via forms? I'm just talking about a thin client, such as you typically use when you have emacs running as a server. You only have to manage text and windowing, and capturing user commands and communicating with the back end. These are the kind of things brow…

Well, think of a 3270 editor, such as ISPF EDIT on MVS or XEDIT on VM/CMS. Now imagine using that editor through a 3270-to-HTML gateway. That's what I was really talking about. But, you could actually implement a similar style of interaction in pure HTML, without the 3270 layer. Indeed, a lot of classic server-side web apps, even if they weren't text editors, worked with that UI style.

Of course, Emacs doesn't support 3270. But that was my point – that there are UI styles which Emacs doesn't support. They might not be useful UI styles, especially in 2020. But historically they were important, and any suggestion that Emacs is some kind of magic which supports all UI styles isn't really true, although maybe it supports all contemporarily practically relevant UI styles.

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#86
post #59

Emacs + org has the potential to be the dream environment for everybody with a hacker mindset: Automate everything that has to do with text: Journaling, writing todo lists, parsing your Kindle highlights file (`My Clippings.txt'), writing project outlines, doing web research and saving your searches, notes, thoughts, summaries in Emacs via org-capture, drafting papers in org-mode, creating (text-based) tables and ove…

I hate org. I use emacs 25/7, I hate org. Something about it rubs me the wrong way, yet I use it but only the basic parts. I think it's that I can't wrap my head around the mental model of it, and since it encompasses 2000 topics (trees, timing, workflow, states, agenda, journaling, tagging) it's like a mountain of mud before my eyes.

Well you don't even have to understand it fully, that is what is great about it.

What it is good for is that it gives you maximal freedom in organizing things the way you want. When I start out with a new org file, I just make lists and add functionality when needed.

While with most other todo/organizing applications you tend to be forced in some framework. This is how you should organize, and when you want to deviate things become cumbersome.

And then the other good thing is that editing is FAST (I use evil mode), in most other organizing/productivity tools you have to click a lot. Simple things become a chore quickly.

Freedom + speed = gold

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#87
post #46

Emacs is not a text editor, it's a platform independent VM which can run your scripts with a text UI. E.g. do you want keep an eye on some information which can be fetched from the net? You just write a script which regularly fetches the info and puts it into a buffer, so you can take a look at it anytime, and then regardless of platform you have that info readily available just by installing your own emacs config fi…

We've been joking about emacs being an OS for a long time. And it even reads email (still haven't set that up actually...)

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is idiotic about the Touchbar that is not idiodic about function keys? You have to look at your keyboard to hit the function keys, why not use the glance for a visual feedback loop?

On any reasonable keyboard, the function keys are in groups of four (F1-F2-F3-F4 F5-F6-F7-F8 F9-F10-F11-F12), or sometimes three. It's not necessary to look to see where the keys are.

You're excluding pretty much every laptop there.

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#89
post #46

Emacs is not a text editor, it's a platform independent VM which can run your scripts with a text UI. E.g. do you want keep an eye on some information which can be fetched from the net? You just write a script which regularly fetches the info and puts it into a buffer, so you can take a look at it anytime, and then regardless of platform you have that info readily available just by installing your own emacs config fi…

> t's much easier to write such things in emacs than curating various different scripts in various languages (python, etc.) which all require their specific support which is either available or not.

Not in my experience.

I much prefer to use the simpler acme / plan9 way, where I am free to use the language I prefer or that is better suited for the job. Same for vscode, atom, etc.

Vim and neovim are halfway between these extremes and I would say easier to bend towards acme than towards emacs.

That being said, I use org mode because it’s great, thanks to emacs capabilities. I would however also much prefer org mode if it was an external pandoc-like program, usable from anything.

Re: Emacs is special regarding UIs

#90
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate org. I use emacs 25/7, I hate org. Something about it rubs me the wrong way, yet I use it but only the basic parts. I think it's that I can't wrap my head around the mental model of it, and since it encompasses 2000 topics (trees, timing, workflow, states, agenda, journaling, tagging) it's like a mountain of mud before my eyes.

I started using it as an outliner. Then I added org-agenda to it, and migrated all my tasks from Things3 to it. Next I added repeated tasks, then org-habits, org-journal and some more. Incrementally.

I choked at outliner level
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