Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#441

Post by newbie578 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:52 PM UTC

Again so many people defending Apple here just because they love their Macs...

This just shows how Apple has a "deity" like status in the community, fanboys here are willing to die defending Apple and their arbitrary "rules".

Just dare to imagine if tomorrow Microsoft came out and said Steam broke ToS and starting September 11 all accounts signed-up over outlook.com will be disabled.

There would be riots on the streets and buildings burning, Nadella would give a resignation within a week.

Yet for Apple, the rules don't apply (ironically). Tim Cook blatantly commits perjury in front of Congress and no one bats an eye, yet people are still willing to trash Gates how "arrogant" he was to Congress 20 years ago.

The only true hope is for EU step in and completely revamp the App Store

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#442

Post by WWLink » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:58 PM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #378

fxtentacle wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

> I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. It seems to be hurting them more than Apple: Epic Games Asks Court to Allow Fortnite Back on the App Store: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/05/epic-injuction-fortnite... > Meanwhile, Epic now has a very good reason to collect a working email address from every past iOS customer One of the biggest reason I love using Sign-In Wi…

> All of the other news, like hampering advertisers, is good for users but bad for companies and developers who like to prey on users.

I think it's all a mixed bag, and it might be naive of users to assume Apple is always going to protect them from things that go against their best interests.

Somehow Apple's arduous review process misses privacy exploits like when Facebook or Tiktok or some other random ad company does it. Shoot, they even rolled back some big privacy change in iOS 14 because Facebook complained about it.

I dunno, this will sound stupid, but my primary reason against the "closed ecosystem" is that I can't run a decent Tetris app on my iPhone. It must be the official N3twork licensed Tetris app or noooothing. That sucks.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#443

Post by modeless » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:59 PM UTC

nodamage wrote: post #421

gamblor956 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in fact the judge suggested they do that so their users aren't impacted. In fact, the judge did not suggest they do so because absent economic harm Epic had no standing to sue until Apple retaliated. The judge simply pointed out that they couldn't provide injunctive relief forcing Apple to allow Epic to have its own store before the case was decided on the merits. (Judges rarely grant injunctive relief to change the…

I am amazed that this obviously false claim has been repeated a dozen times in this thread. Epic already has suffered economic harm based on the $300 million in Fortnite IAP fees Apple has previously collected. They already had standing to sue to get those fees back. They did not need to do anything else. > In fact, the judge did not suggest they do so because absent economic harm Epic had no standing to sue until Ap…

Antitrust requires demonstrating harm to consumers, not just to Epic.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#444

Post by modeless » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 11:59 PM UTC

nodamage wrote: post #413

modeless wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic alleges that Apple is breaking the law, and breaking the App Store rules was a pretty much required step to establish standing to sue. Is Apple above the legal system, such that they should be able to destroy businesses that dare to challenge them in court, regardless of the merits of their claims and before they are even heard?

They already had standing based on the $300 million in IAP fees Apple has collected from Fortnite. They could have simply sued and said "we want our $300 million back". They didn't need to do anything else.

Antitrust requires demonstrating harm to consumers, not just to Epic.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#445

Post by cafed00d » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:01 AM UTC

jariel wrote: post #396

paulpan wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Interesting point about the looming iOS14 update. Makes you wonder whether Apple will ultimately fall at their privacy sword, similar to how Google fell at its own "Don't do evil" motto. E.g. it's meaningless bravado when not applied to universally to all countries, aka China.

They need more than gaming studios. The top 100 apps on iOS need to do a 'blackout' and pull their apps from iOS for a week. That will make front page international headlines globally and involve the entire planet. That's the kind of scale necessary. Legislators from around the world will take notice whereas right now, probably very few know or care. Don't discount how little the public knows or cares about these kin…

Do the top 100 apps on iOS feel the same way though? Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny?

I feel like it's a reasonable trade-off. Free apps don't cost you much (yes, $99 for dev tools is not much honestly. It keeps away spurious bots and spammy accounts). Paid apps cost 30% -- if the dev decides to charge outrageous prices then well, Apple will take an outrageous cut).

Most apps cost $1-$5 which is cheap. Of course, at a billion users it's hefty. But if you're grumpy about that then it just means you're grumpy about a shrewd for-profit company.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#446

Post by tramav » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:03 AM UTC

nodamage wrote: post #382

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

> And the EU will levy the world's biggest fine at Apple, I predict north of $5 billion if not $10 billion for abusing their status with this being a notable case. Apple only has ~25% market share in the EU. Their "status" is as the minority player in the market. It's questionable whether this is high enough to violate EU antitrust laws, which have usually required at least 40% to show market dominance.

The law talks about "a dominant position within the internal market or in a substantial part of it". If we look at the iOS platform, Apple could be seen to have a dominant position there since it is the market maker there.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#447

Post by curiousmindz » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:03 AM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #274

drenvuk wrote: post #260

I don't get why on Hackernews anyone would ever defend Apple here. Regardless of whether they're right to do this if Epic wins their court case against them we stand to gain the most benefit. Apple's incredibly high walled garden is honestly the scariest thing for me. If I develop for windows I can simply distribute my application on my site easily. With Android I can tell people to download from F-Droid if necessary…

> Epic caused their own pain here, sure but What other way can we actually get a semi open platform that we're not being taxed on? As an Apple user, the whole point here is that it's not an open system. I just can't get riled up over a developer not following the rules of a platform. I use Apple because the Apple ecosystem is valuable to me - the store, the SSO, the Apple ID, the UI/UX, the hardware - all of it. I do…

Let's forget about this current case, and think in general:

Do you think that the Apple ecosystem could get better? Surely, there are improvements that would be a net positive for you?

Now, what if what Epic is doing results in an improvement in the Apple ecosystem?

Ultimately, you can only say that this case has no value to you if you can reason that there is no way that it will make things better for you, and that's a very tough thing to prove without a crystal ball :)

Still, you certainly don't have to put all that much thought into this. At the end of the day, there are far more important things in life.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#448

Post by mthoms » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:03 AM UTC

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #346

mthoms wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What actually happened was Apple un-approved Epic's license, which had a cascading effect because Unreal Engine was signed under the same license, and so software dependent on Unreal Engine became no longer signed and thus was not going to be allowed on the App Store. Developers using Unreal Engine certainly do not sign their app with Epic's credentials.

No, I mean the Engine is signed with Epic's credentials, so if the Unreal Engine isn't approved for App Store stuff because Epic's credentials are revoked then things dependent on it are impacted.

That’s still not how it works. Apple attempted to remove Epic from its developer program completely, meaning they wouldn’t have access to the tools to keep the engine up to date. It has nothing to do with signing.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#449

Post by nodamage » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:06 AM UTC

modeless wrote: post #444

nodamage wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already had standing based on the $300 million in IAP fees Apple has collected from Fortnite. They could have simply sued and said "we want our $300 million back". They didn't need to do anything else.

Antitrust requires demonstrating harm to consumers, not just to Epic.

1. Not necessarily. Per se violations do not require proof of consumer harm, for example. Epic's tying claim against Apple is an alleged per se violation.

2. It was already established in Apple v. Pepper that developers had standing to sue Apple over App Store policies. The case then went up to the Supreme Court which ruled that consumers also have standing to sue.

3. Showing consumer harm may help Epic win their suit. But it's not necessary to establish standing to bring the suit in the first place.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#450

Post by Zanni » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 12:14 AM UTC

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #312

reaperducer wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business It’s the hazards of building your business on another company’s foundation. There are millions of companies completely dependent on Apple, Amazon, or another organization. In tech terms, it goes back to affiliate marketing days. In real world terms, it goes back centuries. No leader should make his company dependent on another company, but it happens all t…

> It’s the hazards of building your business on another company’s foundation. This is one of those mindkill kind of lines someone posts in all such threads. Yes, everything in the world depends on something else. Do you also say this when companies rely on utility companies for their electricity and water? Or must I buy an island and set things up from scratch before I am allowed to start a lemonade stand? Or maybe m…

Water and electricity are, as you say, utilities and can't shut you down on a whim. But if you only have one source for lemons, and they cut you off, that's on you. Epic knows this. They're not just on iOS. You can find Fortnite on Xbox, Playstation, Switch, Android ...