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Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

engelsbergideas.com

11–20 of 59 posts

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#11

I do not look to China's Covid-19 response as worthy of emulation. People were literally bolted into their apartment complexes. China has a gross disrespect for individual rights that the West should never, ever adopt. We don't even know what the extent of Covid deaths are in China. We actually have no clue, because all information is tightly controlled by the CCP. Anything coming from China should be viewed through…

Notwithstanding your point about the desirability/practicality of a China style response outside of china, this:

  " I think Sweden showed that it ..." 
has not been established yet so remains only one of a number of (potentially) interesting noisy data sets.

Of course the range of response is much broader than US style incoherence to China style authoritarian control. There are bound to be a variety of interesting learnings from this range if we can get past personal/regional/national blinders.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#12

I think Plato was spot on that when people go into politics for their own financial gain, the society as a whole will suffer for it. We need to create systems that make politics attractive to people who do it out of ideology. I would agree with Plato that character training, or at the very least testing, is useful and appropriate.

Agreed. Or at least remove the possibility of career politics. 2 terms in most positions ought to remove all the oldies implementing policies of 70s on today's people.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#13

We just need leaders who are capable. We haven't seen any capacity or desire to improve human lives from current leadership. We are suffering for our choices.

I'd say most of them are running private companies that are both improving human life and generating profit. I think the part I agree with the most from the article is the one that talks about having people in government who have the skill to know what experts to lay off issues to. I think if we had leaders that did we'd be much better off.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#14
What a bad essay. I'm shocked that standards for writing have dropped so low.

Consider this paragraph:

> Democracy’s fetishisation of freedom inevitably gives way to anarchy. Fathers pander to their sons, teachers to their pupils, humans to animals, and ‘the minds of the citizens become so sensitive that the least vestige of restraint is resented as intolerable’. Anarchy produces class struggle, as the poor attack the rich and the rich retaliate; class struggle produces war and disorder. When all this becomes intolerable the masses will turn to a dictator who can restore order.

It's meaningless! Democracy apparently makes "humans pander to animals." Why does this happen? Just because! The author spits out this weird gob of nonsense and continues as if he's made a real argument that democracy always leads to anarchy (which, confusingly, leads to class conflict, and not the other way around).

He does mention uneducated voters making bad decisions earlier, but that's a whole other can of worms that he never even digs into (i.e. can we fix this with education reforms, or by introducing new journalistic standards into media?). He just throws it out there as if it's all the proof he needs that only "wise elites" can save us from ourselves.

How about this part:

> Thus the paradox at the heart of tyranny: even though tyrants have absolute power over other people, they have no power over themselves. Slaves to their own passions – ‘ill-governed’ in their own souls as Plato puts it – they use their positions to inflict those passions on the entire population. A tyranny is a psycho-drama in which everyone is caught up in the tyrant’s raging ego.

This is flatly untrue. Let's look at some of the greatest tyrants of the 21st century. Xi Jinping, Vladmir Putin, the Saudis... we could go on. Are any of these people particularly prone to temper tantrums? "Slaves of their own passions"? No! They're ruthless, disciplined, and experts at consolidating and leveraging power. This weird psychoanalysis of authoritarianism has no basis in fact -- it's just storytelling.

Finally, scraping away the abysmal analysis, we get the actual argument:

> The metaphor of the ship is a way of driving home Plato’s wider point about the importance of ‘guardians’. Plato argues that a successful republic is run by a class of people whose job it is to think about the long-term success of the polis.

The trouble with this is that putting a discreet class of people in charge of society leads to those people acting in their own interests. The whole motivating reason behind democracy is for the public to have a veto on their leadership so that leaders can't act in their own interest. The author's solution is "let's educate our leaders not to act in their own interest," but that's practically a childish suggestion. What part of history has ever suggested that you can educate humans out of their innate instinct to act in self-interest?The author provides basically no real examples. Who gets to decide how these rulers are educated? The rulers? Wow I'm sure we can trust them not to act in their self-interest in that regard. After all, they "educated" themselves not to.

They did include a couple vague gestures at evidence:

> Benjamin Jowett, the master of Balliol from 1870 until his death in 1893, devoted his life to two great projects: producing a definitive edition of Plato and turning his college into a production line for Platonic guardians.

> [...]

> There was a certain amount of priggishness in the cult of Plato. But it nevertheless produced an elite that was remarkably public spirited by today’s standards: too dignified to put its fingers in the cookie jar and too well-educated to be blown hither and thither by the latest intellectual fads. The old elite didn’t hog publicity for the sake of publicity – most of them were happy to work in the background without any public credit – and they wouldn’t dream of piling up vast private fortunes. This was a world of modest but tasteful cottages in the country, not swanky apartments in Belgravia or Manhattan. Dignified public service was its own reward.

But again, that says nothing. Who exactly are we referring to here? Which individuals led so well? By which metrics? How do they compare against other leaders? No actual evidence, just a bunch of emotionally-loaded language. The period in question (19th century England) was absolutely abysmal for workers' rights, by the way. It was the workers' movement -- a grassroots populist movement -- that ultimately led to pro-worker reforms. Not "wise Platonic leaders."

TL;DR this article doesn't make any real arguments, and relies on emotionally-loaded language and appeals to the nobility of elites rather than the material conditions of history.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#16

I think Plato was spot on that when people go into politics for their own financial gain, the society as a whole will suffer for it. We need to create systems that make politics attractive to people who do it out of ideology. I would agree with Plato that character training, or at the very least testing, is useful and appropriate.

> We need to create systems that make politics attractive to people who do it out of ideology.

Is your implication that right now most politicians are not politicians out of ideology first and foremost, but rather for their own financial gain?

I would take the contrarian view. I would guess the majority of politicians are politicians because of ideology. Although they may not believe everything (or perhaps even most of what) they say they do and what they do believe may change while in office, I would be surprised if they don't have some core ideology that powers them.

It's otherwise unclear to me why politicians seek re-election so frequently. In most Western democracies, a person with the opportunity to become a career politician has far more lucrative job opportunities outside of politics than within, especially once you've become a high-level politician. If people were doing it for money, I'd imagine they'd do a single term and then immediately try to parlay that into another job rather than trying to slug it out term after term.

The other mildly persuasive explanation to me is enjoying the power of the office, but the feeling of power is very hard to separate from fervent ideology.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#17

I think Plato was spot on that when people go into politics for their own financial gain, the society as a whole will suffer for it. We need to create systems that make politics attractive to people who do it out of ideology. I would agree with Plato that character training, or at the very least testing, is useful and appropriate.

Agreed. Or at least remove the possibility of career politics. 2 terms in most positions ought to remove all the oldies implementing policies of 70s on today's people.

Wait aren't these opposites?

> 2 terms in most positions ought to remove all the oldies implementing policies of 70s on today's people.

This sounds exactly like a problem of ideology, not financial gain.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#18

I think Plato was spot on that when people go into politics for their own financial gain, the society as a whole will suffer for it. We need to create systems that make politics attractive to people who do it out of ideology. I would agree with Plato that character training, or at the very least testing, is useful and appropriate.

I don't want politicians who rule based on ideology. That's how we get disasters like the USSR. Instead I want pragmatists who change their minds in response to new information.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#19
post #9

I do not look to China's Covid-19 response as worthy of emulation. People were literally bolted into their apartment complexes. China has a gross disrespect for individual rights that the West should never, ever adopt. We don't even know what the extent of Covid deaths are in China. We actually have no clue, because all information is tightly controlled by the CCP. Anything coming from China should be viewed through…

A lot to unpack here. China's response to Covid is maybe not the best, but Taiwan provides an excellent example of how a democracy can responsibly react to a crisis. The author's point that western governments have become woefully ineffective can be seen in other examples. A lot of civil institutions in the west are languishing and this should be improved regardless of what's happening in some foreign country. Finall…

When you actually dig into the deaths in Sweden, the vast majority were in the over 75 demographic, which is vulnerable to any disease or cause of death. They had several early outbreaks in nursing homes and assisted living facilities and once they got those under control, the virus fizzled out on its own among the younger population. There are currently only 13 hospitalizations in the whole country at this point in time. Sweden's economy has suffered the least in the Euro zone. There's also no great reason to not compare Sweden to France, UK and Spain. While Sweden and Denmark may have Scandinavian culture, it's not as if Covid discriminates based on culture. If you want to make some sort of genetic argument, you're going to have to back that up with some data and studies.

Hospitalizations in the U.S. are currently plummeting, we've never hit anywhere near capacity for hospitalization, and the virus is fizzling out on its own. Each state has gotten to choose its own policy for Covid-19 (as they should, by the way), and some states have banned gatherings of more than 8 people, mandated masks in public, issued various stay at home orders, jailed business owners for daring to reopen, etc. Some states like South Dakota have never issued any restrictions whatsoever. There is no clear pattern in the data for policy, between countries or states. Indeed, there's a lot of confounding factors that make it difficult to infer the effectiveness of any region's policy choices. Taiwan, for example. Are their results on account of that they are an island nation with tight inflow and outflow controls or the fact that SARS1 and other weaker coronaviruses already disseminated in the population and therefore a higher amount of the population have natural immunity from fighting off a similar disease? If they haven't developed herd immunity, are they simply kicking the can down the road in the hopes a vaccine works? If not, will they forever be isolating visitors in 14 day quarantine to avoid an outbreak? That doesn't sound sustainable to me.

Re: Leadership in crisis – why the West needs Plato more than ever

#20

We just need leaders who are capable. We haven't seen any capacity or desire to improve human lives from current leadership. We are suffering for our choices.

We could have leaders who are capable. Unfortunately, we would never vote for them because we'd find them boring, or assume they're venal baby-killing sociopaths like every other politician, or vote for someone else because we believe government is inherently evil and should be hamstrung by idiots.

If society treated governance, politics and civic leadership the way it does any other profession, we would raise up competent leaders the way we do doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.

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