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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#391

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

> Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Well, yes. Thing is, Epic essentially started a war. Had they went and sued Apple... that's normal. They could have also tried this in the EU where they would likely garner some governmental help. But the decided to violate license agreements, created smear PR campaigns and so on. It is unsu…

> 'm not sure the public is better served by a store from a company that punches so low. Using they customers as fodder is not

I would say that applies to apple lot more than epic , they have hurt their customers .

Apple could also have taken epic to the courts as well and got their way if it was fair. Remember apple did the actual ban and is hurting the users now .

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#392

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

>Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

1) You make it seem like Apple are some capricious God like entity that any moment will completely change the underlying terms and conditions you agreed to when running your business in iOS. Its simply not true. If you remove this one situation with Epic its literally never happened.

2) Consumer trust in Apple flows onto any company that is on the iOS platform. You expect Apple to give this away for free? It provides immeasurable benefit to most businesses insofar that a consumer is far more likely to purchase goods or services knowing that Apple have 'vetted' you simply by being on the iOS platform. By Apple being so strict and stringent on App Store requirements you know as a consumer they aren't doing things in the interest of the vendors which in turn benefits legitimate vendors.

3) Epic flagrantly violated the terms they had previously agreed to simply because they don't agree to the 30% cut. That style of negotiation is absolutely atrocious and Epic should be the ones being punished not Apple. If they felt so strongly about Apple's anti-trust liabilities they could have formed an alliance with other businesses and lobbied governments globally without breaking existing T&Cs. They probably would have won too and been able to get the cut Apple take to the same level that it costs Apple to run (say 15%). Instead they are trying to bully Apple into doing something that benefits Epic and Epic alone.

Epic are 100% in the wrong here.

Note I am neither an Epic nor Apple user.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#393

It's always interesting to read the comments on articles about the Epic Games situation. We can have discussions about Apple's cut or how Apple operates their store but this is such a clear cut case that I'm honestly surprised so many HN readers are siding with Epic (or maybe it's just the anti-Apple crowd looking for any reason to crap on Apple). Epic tried to get Apple to allow a whole new store on their platform A…

> Epic isn't fighting for the little guy, they wanted their own store That's the point. This is also what the little guys want. Epic isn't fighting for the little guy, but they are fighting for terms that are mutually beneficial for both Epic and the little guy. For the devs who support Epic in the lawsuit, it's never directly been about the 30% cut. It's about this article, right here -- that Apple requires you to s…

> I understand why people disagree with me

Respectfully, it feels like you don't. For example:

> I understand why people think that the average consumer might be too stupid to actually own their own hardware and make their own decisions.

It's not about stupidity. I like the fact that my 94-year-old grandmother (who isn't stupid, by the way) doesn't have to worry about accidentally downloading malware from the App Store on her iOS devices, and the fact that she can't be phished into side-loading the same. As long as side loading is a thing, malicious actors will trick some users into side loading malware.

My grandmother has never been such an autonomous computer user as the day she got an iOS device. It's absolutely astonishing how much more agency she has as a computer user with iOS, compared to Windows and Android. She manages the device almost entirely by herself (vs. Windows/Android where a family member spent a few hours per month fixing things). Her iOS device is an actual "personal" computer, one on which she, not another family member, gets to make the decisions about which software to run.

So here's the inconvenient fact for your argument: In a very real sense, my grandmother (who, I claim, is much more representative of an average user than you or I, here on Hacker News) is making more of her own decisions with more autonomy than she ever did on Windows or Android. And that new agency is enabled because of Apple's policies.

> So is it really impossible for you to understand why someone would want the ability to control what code runs on their own device they bought? Do you genuinely believe that all boils down to anti-Apple sentiment? You can't understand the other viewpoint at all?

It's not hard to understand why someone wants more control. It is, however, very hard for me to understand why you don't use the mobile operating system that already works the way you claim to want it to.

Genuine question: Apple makes no secret of the fact that they exert a large degree of control over the ecosystem, and they have a generous return policy. If you don't hate Apple, why don't you just buy an Android device and allow those of us who like iOS the way it is to live in peace? Why are you forcing your desires on us?

> the stuff Epic wants is also the stuff I want

> but they are fighting for terms that are mutually beneficial for both Epic and the little guy.

Epic is not fighting for mutually-beneficial terms. You can already side load on Android yet Epic is suing Google right alongside Apple. Epic doesn't want you to side load your own code--they want you to pay for someone else's code through Epic's store without paying a cut to Apple. That's it.

Speaking mutually-beneficial: Sign-in with Apple, a "gimped" browser, developer restrictions, forcing IAP to go through Apple. Yes, those all all very clearly benefit Apple. But they also benefit users.

It would be nice if app developers could offer their own payment platform. But what happens when a user (deservedly) asks for a refund? Apple has to say "sorry bud, we didn't process the payment, you're out of luck for using the 3rd-party IAP". So users stop trusting the platform, which hurts other developers. Remember when you stopped trusting that a product on amazon.com was actually sold by Amazon? Did that make you more or less likely to spend money on amazon.com?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arizona Iced Tea...haven't bought it lately but they used to put 99 cents on the packaging. In some places like liquor stores, I've seen it sold for over 99 cents. Also, the comparison between Apple and retail isn't fair. If Walmart doesn't want your product, you can sell to Target. If Apple doesn't want your software product, you have no alternative.

Now try that in Walmart, GameStop, Best Buy, or any other major retailer. Have you also noticed that the same goods even where it is allowed is sometimes marked at a different price? Do you think that the marked price does not already include the retailers markup? Sure you have an alternative - Android. Just like back in the day, Nintendo refused to allow certain types of games.

> Sure you have an alternative - Android.

iOS has 52% marketshare in the US. If over half of Americans are locked out of your product, that's not much of an alternative. Continuing your retail analogy, you can drive to Target, Walmart, Best Buy without any hassles, but making your customers switch from iOS to Android has significant friction. And Android lets your sideload even if Google doesn't like your app.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument a lot, and I think it's fine if not a tad flawed. If that's what you want, you can keep it. I don't really see anyone saying "kill the review process" and "open everything by default". This would all go away if Apple simply made it a setting to allow other IPAs AND allowed outside payment / subscription management. Keep the garden if you want it. Don't enable outside installs. If you don't want to…

That's not how it would work though. You'd see things similar to what Epic themselves did on Android originally, where they required people who wanted to play Fortnite to download the APK directly from Epic, which of course led to hundreds of fake and infected apps on the net, harming users.

So which is better: having no Fortnite at all or having no Fortnite in the App Store with the option to sideload. If you strictly want to stay in the App Store then nothing changes for you and the situation is neither worse nor better. If you just want to play Fortnite on your iPhone and don't care about the App Store then the latter option is a better.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Interesting point about the looming iOS14 update. Makes you wonder whether Apple will ultimately fall at their privacy sword, similar to how Google fell at its own "Don't do evil" motto. E.g. it's meaningless bravado when not applied to universally to all countries, aka China.

They need more than gaming studios.

The top 100 apps on iOS need to do a 'blackout' and pull their apps from iOS for a week. That will make front page international headlines globally and involve the entire planet. That's the kind of scale necessary.

Legislators from around the world will take notice whereas right now, probably very few know or care.

Don't discount how little the public knows or cares about these kinds of things, most people are busy with their lives they are not paying attention. Few even know or understand the terms of the iOS store let alone what it means.

So a focused PR campaign and 'major action' by a lot of players is what is needed. FB, Wikipedia, Netflix, CNN etc. etc..

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the hazards of building your business on another company’s foundation. This is one of those mindkill kind of lines someone posts in all such threads. Yes, everything in the world depends on something else. Do you also say this when companies rely on utility companies for their electricity and water? Or must I buy an island and set things up from scratch before I am allowed to start a lemonade stand? Or maybe m…

You can get identical electricity from different provider. You cant get identical platform from not apple.

The lines are the same, owned by either a state or most likely a company. Unless you live in some weird place where every company installs their own lines.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#398
post #392

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

>Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. What a ridiculous thing to say. 1) You make it seem like Apple are some capricious God like entity that any moment will completely change the underlying terms and conditions you agreed to when running your business in iOS. Its simply not true. If you remove this one situation with Epic its li…

"moment will completely change the underlying terms and conditions you agreed to"

They do it all the time. The terms are vague and they can interpret them, or change their mind at will. This happens daily in small cases, and more so in bigger one's were Apple, out of the blue, demands a 30% cut of some adjacent business.

Apple is in this for profit - if they can adjust the rules within legality for more money - the will.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#399
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We're sorry that you were unable to log in with Apple. Here's a discount offer on an HTC U-series phone! And we'll throw in five new Fortnite skins!"

They got every single kid to enable 2FA on Epic Accounts by giving a free skin. My brother even asked me 'how to 2FA?'

That's pure genius. Wow.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#400
Epic here is not telling the truth. Apple has revoked their developer license which revoked the Sign In with Apple certificates. Apple probably sent them a courtesy notice about it but epic is just spinning it as if Apple is disabling their Sign In with Apple capabilities. This just looks bad on Epic.
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