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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#541
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually like it the way it is now. You don't hear our arguments, you only want to be represented in that court without us. But conscious apple users are not all pro-sideload. if the App Store is such a tremendous value, why don‘t you ask users to pay for access to that App Store directly Because the value is not in the appstore itself, but in an inability to push uncontrolled spy/trick/crap-ware through side chann…

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. --- You have not changed the end result, simply moved the goal posts for safety. Malicious apps can and do get approved. Malware has been signed by Apple. Millions are still tricked through websites loaded in the browser. You have NOT solved security or safety by sticking with a single store. In retur…

This is quoted often, but doesn't take any subject or reality detail into account. It is simply not true. I'll show you why.

Goals and outcomes have to be realistic, not idealistic. All parties considered, and given how app/media world works, there are two major models that are represented by two big players (google, apple). First one is to build a garden that, barring little fuckups, mostly works in favor of a money-spending user and has no economics in selling them out. Another is a "free as in cheese" model where everything costs less, and is less- or un- controlled, so that various third-party economics who are another giant's infotrade puppets play their game at relaxed rules or at will. This includes phone vendors, other stores and software packages from the internet. There is a third model, a PC, that has a rich history not worth exposing again to an innocent user. And fourth, ubuntu, which had essentially zero economics.

For the context, I own both android and ios devices (and mac, and pc). And android's agenda of being free and doing everything you want simply isn't real. There is basically no possibilities ("freedoms") without some sticky strings attached. I could bring a metaphor of being an android user, but it hardly fits hn format. Let's say that an android user has to make bodily compromises along the way of searching for "freedom", but never finding it. Because no one in the world needs you to be free and happy for free, and your market data costs more than you. They will either sell you a big margin, or monetize it by digging in your laundry.

So basically, there is no choice at all, from the perspective of goals you (and I, ideally) chase. The world and its needs simply do not work like that. I'm not exchanging freedom for safety, I'm exchanging money for privacy, and "free as in freedom" is not an option at all.

And I wouldn't even mind if such ideal world existed, where everyone just writes an app that does great things, then sells/gifts it on an open mobile store and everyone to be happy. But by giving up on a walled garden IRL, I give up on a walled garden and freedom and privacy and hygiene. I'd better not own my device rather than not owning my privacy or checking constantly where my info leaks.

Hope that clears my views.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#542
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were true, Epic would not want to offer its app outside of the app store. But it does, because it's more profitable.

No data for this exists. This is all my opinion and most importantly feelings about spending money though the AppStore and through any other channel. I will say, for me no other company has built the good will that Apple has. I really doubt that Epic understands the “trust” I speak about. Both because of the general sentiment I see online and as a Fortnite player.

Just thinking about this some more...

Have any of you actually played Fortnite?

Do any of you know how many bugs exist in that game? I’m not even talking about “wall hacks”, rendering issues, difficult collision detection stuff or the many in game broken mechanics. I’m talking about the many, many out-of-game user interface bugs. Logging in fails 1/4 the time (need to reboot the app). Matchmaking fails 1/10 the time (just stuck in an infinite loop). Matchmaking for groups fails 1/10 the time (at least one person in the party will not be in the same game!!! How does a software company fuck up atomic transactions for the full party?)

lol Epic is not a company I want handling financial transactions. I’m very happy to buy Vbucks from Apple/Google/Sony and then “safely” use Vbucks in the Fortnite store.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#543
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make it that you must sign the binaries. Google distribute/manage the keys, but are not allowed to veto legal things.

That serves no purpose. If Google can’t veto any signature requests, it’s no different than having no signature at all; You’ll just have signed malware.

They must have a valid reason, not "they don't use our payment processing"

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not ridiculous at all - all those reasons you list mattered (though arguably iPhone had fewer features than most phones, Safari notwithstanding), but the tipping points were the App Store and Exchange integration in iOS 2.0 summer 2008. And the iPhone 3G model. that matched the bar that Blackberry had set for security. Companies allowed the switch to iPhone when they realized that it was in theory as secure as B…

The fact you note events after the initial launch are exactly why it's ridiculous to say it's why people chose it for those reasons "from day one".

Some perspective please - The original iPhone had total restrictions and no 3rd party apps. Then they added the App Store the following summer 2008.

So of course a major appeal was that it was a curated and totally secure platform was from day one. I know this because I was a many year Blackberry customer and was in the record lines in June 2007.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#545
post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software has always, since it was first sold in the 1960s, been a licensed product/service. You never owned anything - you had a contract for a certain set of functionality and support, maybe upgrades. Tolls like the above were how the mainframe started and are nothing new. We had a historical anomaly with the PC being a hobby platform at its roots where everything felt so free. Legally it never was, that was a marke…

What I'm getting at is the subversion of the control of the platform from the user to the vendor. Maybe it was due to the technical limitations of the time, or the sensibilities of geek-culture, but the vendor never controlled the device once they sold it to you. You didn't need to beg for permission to compile software on mainframes.

I think a lot of this is because of the hobbiest roots of the PC, it was never taken seriously as a commercial device at first, and had broad tinkering support from the early days. They never could really abandon that stance because of those who adopted new products.

Any attempt to do a sealed experience for average users was subpar in execution... except perhaps gaming consoles.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you gave very good examples. For me, Ticketmaster and scientific journals abuse their position and there should be laws to prevent that.

I have no problem with new laws to address this behavior. My disagreement is with the belief that existing anticompetitive laws apply to this situation.

Apple has at least 50% of the market in the USA. They have 90% of the youth market so the general market share just keeps growing.

You can't have a successful app business without putting your offering in Apple's app store.

Our existing anti-trust laws absolutely apply here.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact you note events after the initial launch are exactly why it's ridiculous to say it's why people chose it for those reasons "from day one".

Some perspective please - The original iPhone had total restrictions and no 3rd party apps. Then they added the App Store the following summer 2008. So of course a major appeal was that it was a curated and totally secure platform was from day one. I know this because I was a many year Blackberry customer and was in the record lines in June 2007.

The vast majority of phones people had at the time were not smartphones. The original iPhone was more "super impressive dumbphone" than smartphone, because it only had what it came with. Unless you were using Symbian, Blackberry, or a Windows Phone (which most people weren't), you had some dumb phone that had a crappy browser that couldn't render well, and whatever shipped on the phone. Maybe some extra ringtones you could download.

Blackberry was far and away considered the much more secure and safe option, for those that needed it. Your company could run your own messaging service (through Blackberry Enterprise Server), so it was far more secure in that respect.

I also had a Blackberry at the time the iPhone was announced. You were in the lines for an iPhone at the time because you wanted the safety and security it offered? Or because it looked really nice, had a browser that rendered correctly, and had a nice new way to interface? Because I don't know anyone else who switched for security at the time.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#548
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS in its first year was only 20% of EPIC's overall Fortnite revenue that year. I'm not comparing iOS to Android - i'm comparing iOS to every platform EPIC makes money on. 20% is a big chunk yes, but 2 billion instead of 2.5 billion is still a ton of money, and they're obviously willing to sacrifice in order to get to their real goal - bringing the EPIC game store to iOS

You're cherry-picking your data. What about the % of revenue in 2020, or in 2019?

Not cherry picking - I picked the most solid comparison of revenue between platforms I could find. No idea of the % of revenue in 2020 and 2019 - I couldn't find them.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortnite is all DLC. All their money is in people buying cosmetics. I was involved in the Fortnite space for a while and on my website, just showing people the cosmetics available was a massive profit maker for me. And since some people (of the younger variety) can't get a PC to game on, but do have a mobile device, cutting themselves off to that profit defeats some of the financial incentive to be on that platform.

> Fortnite is all DLC. Ah, I forgot that bit. So Epic wants to list their products on the App Store and pay Apple $299 a year while they're earning millions off of one game. As an Apple shareholder, I have to ask: what are they putting in the water over at Epic? The only charitable explanation I have is that they don't want to put it on the App Store at all, but they aren't allowed to do that.

> The only charitable explanation I have is that they don't want to put it on the App Store at all, but they aren't allowed to do that.

That's exactly right - they want to be able to install their own EPIC Games store that they can manage and extract 10-15% ish of the sales.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I bought scissors that could only cut certain types of paper, thickness or proprietary paper, I wouldn’t later complain about their inability to cut all paper. “Ownership” of a tool has always been limited to the feature set the manufacturer originally intended for it. This entitlement over the tools Apple creates, accurately advertises, and legal sells is the only problem I see. [1] https://www.sliceproducts.com/…

> If I bought scissors that could only cut certain types of paper If there was a scissors duopoly, in which a company that controls 50% of the market, implemented practices that are anti-competitive, then this could be illegal. > has always been limited to the feature set the manufacturer originally intended for it. Actually, no. Once you purchased the item, you can do whatever you want with it, regardless of what th…

And the courts agreed! I agree!

If you want to jailbreak your iPhone you can and you should! I even agree Apple should be forced to create more tools to create jailbroken iPhones.

However, the warranty should be void. Same as if you use scissors as a hammer, which is your right, the warranty is void. Expecting the original warranty to hold, or expecting the manufacturer to help you misuse the tool is the entitlement.

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