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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#211

Post by fxtentacle »

jmpman wrote: post #25
aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

I'm pretty sure you didn't know that, but Xbox doesn't have any restrictions on tools and payment methods. You can literally just download their SDK, build a game, and monetize it however you want.

In other words, Xbox is already more open than iOS. I believe they opened it up with the Xbox 360 around 2007. https://www.xbox.com/en-US/developers#developerprograms

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#212

Post by danesparza »

tyingq wrote: post #158
hello_tyler wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They broke the TOS on purpose and are now crying about that Apple actually held the line. I think Apple is way overpriced too, but when you go into their ecosystem and profit on it - you have to play by the rules. If you break the rules, you get removed. I would expect the same treatment on any app store.

They broke the TOS for the App Store. Did they break the TOS for "Sign in with Apple"?

It's not clear that there are any specific legal TOS for 'Sign in with Apple':

https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/resources/

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#213

Post by fxtentacle »

gamblor956 wrote: post #62
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

Unlike Apple, larger developers can use their market leverage to negotiate better rates, and many have, which is why you don't hear Epic or Rockstar complaining about MS or Sony. This point is key to the difference, since antitrust is about market interference. If market participants can use their own leverage to push back against another participant's market activities, then you don't have an antitrust violation. Ap…

MS doesn't require Xbox developers to use their IAP API. Most do, but that's just because it's so convenient for the players.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#215

Post by fxtentacle »

Spivak wrote: post #100
supernovae wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has allowed sideloading and community developed games and apps on Xbox for a while now.

I don't think regulators will really see a difference when it comes to the actual market forces at play. If MS doesn't bless your game it's dead regardless of if it's technically possible to get it to run.

I think regulators will see the difference between Apple kicking out developers, and Microsoft letting them in while not promoting them.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#216

Post by IncRnd »

gruez wrote: post #40
aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

>tow the line isn't the expression toe the line? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_the_line#Misspelling_as_%2...

Yes, the word is "toe".

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#217

Post by tynpeddler »

It's astonishing the number of people in this thread that don't understand the basis of Epic's lawsuit. There's way to much of "Epic broke the ToS, therefore everything Apple decides to do in retaliation is justified".

First off, Epic's whole lawsuit is that parts of Apple's ToS are illegal, and thus Apple has no grounds to enforce it as they did. Secondly, the kind of retaliation Apple has attempted to do here very much resembles anti-consumer monopolistic behavior. Apple is using their position in one market (common sign in, developer tools, hardware) to enforce their position in another (app store). Classic no-no.

Obviously the final determination on these points will be made by the courts. In the meantime, if Apple isn't an anti-consumer monopoly, they sure are walking, talking and quacking like one.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#218

Post by CydeWeys »

thdrdt wrote: post #139
foota wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe epic's point is that they believe the ToS to be illegal.

Then they should first fight it before breaking it.

Why? That wouldn't work. You don't win changes by meekly arguing over things.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#219

Post by IncRnd »

danesparza wrote: post #204
tln wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They broke a guideline on purpose. Apple responded by removing from the app store. That's normal. Apple's other actions are just retaliatory: threatening the unreal engine, terminating developer accounts from affiliates, and yanking Apple login. It's those actions that you shouldn't expect.

I disagree. I think Epic Games and the affiliates didn't think through the ramifications for the actions taken by Epic Games. Epic Games is free to build their own phone and app store platform. There is nothing stopping them. Other than the risk that people don't want to buy into whatever they build. But Apple had the same risks. If this is truly a good faith negotiation (and not a stunt) on the part of Epic Games, t…

Epic isn't negotiating with Apple. They are suing Apple.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#220

Post by cavanasm »

mythz wrote: post #167
HelloMcFly wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They needed to do it this way to ensure they had standing to bring a suit as they can now non-hypothetically prove they've been harmed.

This is untrue. Their harm was of their own making which was why the Judge dismissed their injunction: > The Court finds that with respect to Epic Games’ motion as to its games, including Fortnite, Epic Games has not yet demonstrated irreparable harm. The current predicament appears of its own making. Epic strategically chose to breach its agreements with Apple How can purposefully violating someone's contract be a p…

There hasn't been a hearing on an injunction yet, that happens later this month. The hearing that HAS happened was on a temporary restraining order, which was to keep Apple from doing anything UNTIL AFTER the injunction hearing.

The difference is important, the temporary restraining order's effects are only limited to that August-September time window, and the hearing itself had limited argument, and very little preparation time (Epic presumably thinking Apple wouldn't be so aggressive, and would want to drag things out, which they do, but they're also probably hoping to force a settlement as soon as possible). Part of Epic's legal team's arguments was that there is binding legal precedent that "self inflicted harm" was not disqualifying of any of their claims in an anti-trust suit due to the standing hurdle (of note: a similar anti-trust suit filed by an Apple user was thrown out without a trial on grounds that the customer was not able to sufficiently demonstrate Apple's practices harmed them; standing is a very big hurdle), but Epic's lawyers messed up and forgot to file that case brief in the documents they submitted before the restraining order hearing, so the judge made no determination then. They indicated it would be included in the injunction hearing filings. Basically, everything the judge has determined so far could change at the end of the month.

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