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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#121

Post by CharlesW »

danShumway wrote: post #64
smnrchrds wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic isn't fighting for the little guy So many people say "oh, Epic is not the underdog. They are a huge corporation themselves. They do not deserve my sympathy." As if they don't support this case, but would have supported it if it was brought by a small independent developer. As if it is morally wrong to support the case because it has been filed by a big company. But guess what, only a multi-billion dollar corpo…

I've commented to the same effect at least 2 or 3 times over the duration of this lawsuit, but just to keep repeating: if you get too picky about who is and isn't allowed to advocate for you, eventually everyone will stop advocating for you. A billion dollar company is completely necessary to tackle Apple. This stuff is important, and advocates for user-freedom and device ownership can't afford to put every company t…

> A billion dollar company is completely necessary to tackle Apple.

Absolutely not.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/22/apple-approves-hey-email-app...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#122

Post by hello_tyler »

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

They broke the TOS on purpose and are now crying about that Apple actually held the line. I think Apple is way overpriced too, but when you go into their ecosystem and profit on it - you have to play by the rules. If you break the rules, you get removed. I would expect the same treatment on any app store.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#123

Post by fsociety »

jmpman wrote: post #25
aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

I’m not sure how you can compare a closed ecosystem with essential services - phone, email, text, 2FA, emergency warnings, heart monitoring, medicine tracking, banking, etc. - with a closed ecosystem that runs games.

Mobile phones are how many individuals interface with the rest of the world.

Not to mention your case gets worse when there are way less restrictions on releasing games on Xbox/PlayStation/Switch than on iOS.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#124

Post by HelloMcFly »

mythz wrote: post #71
cavanasm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, you can put illegal things in contracts, and lawsuits are there to work that situation out, which is why Epic has gone this route.

Epic went this route to inflict maximum PR damage, they could've sued without willfully violating their contract which hurt their legal case as they've now entered into the lawsuit with unclean hands which was one of the considerations used to deny their injunction for Fortnite.

They needed to do it this way to ensure they had standing to bring a suit as they can now non-hypothetically prove they've been harmed.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#125

Post by np- »

gamblor956 wrote: post #62
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

Unlike Apple, larger developers can use their market leverage to negotiate better rates, and many have, which is why you don't hear Epic or Rockstar complaining about MS or Sony. This point is key to the difference, since antitrust is about market interference. If market participants can use their own leverage to push back against another participant's market activities, then you don't have an antitrust violation. Ap…

Negotiating power seems slightly tangential to the main issue, I don't think that take-it-or-leave-it negotiating tactics are inherently bad. When you buy food from the supermarket, you either pay the price they are charging or you leave - there's no negotiation.

But in that scenario, you can always walk out and walk into a competing grocery store and try to find a better price. The fact that you can walk is what makes it a competitive scenario, and not an anti-trust one. The question here is, is being able to walk away and use an Android (or other smartphone) product an equivalent (thus fair competition) - or is software in the iOS ecosystem unique enough that not being allowed to participate unless you follow arcane rules is unfair abuse of a monopoly.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#126

Post by emsy »

ProAm wrote: post #102
emsy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my eyes Android is terrible with regards to Google’s tracking and 3rd party app quality and privacy. Apple is the better alternative in my opinion (if you want to own a smartphone, which I do), but that doesn’t mean I like their abuse of power.

The discussion is not about Android at all, not sure why you brought them up?

Because if you don't pay the Apple tax, that's the alternative. But I don't want to switch. I want what I have now to be better. I think sign in with Apple is a great service, but not if Apple abuses it for their perverse power games. That's disgusting. You may think my comments towards Android are inflammatory but that's not my intent, because I don't root for either company. I'm simply looking after my own interests.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#127

Post by bogwog »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #109
bogwog wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting kicked out of a mom and pop shop isn’t going to end my business. Apple has the power to create a visible spike in the world’s unemployment graphs whenever they want. When a company gets that big, it needs to be heavily regulated and scrutinized.

> Getting kicked out of a mom and pop shop isn’t going to end my business. And it would be a poor business model if it were capable of ending your business, no?

Are you saying that the entire mobile app business is built on a flawed business model? How do you build a mobile app business that can survive being blacklisted by Apple and Google?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#128

Post by heavyset_go »

d1zzy wrote: post #75
Nextgrid wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying I agree with the restrictions imposed by the console manufacturers but that case is different. A console is designed for a specific task (playing games and similar software), the market is somewhat competitive and you are free to buy a PC/Mac/Linux and get 99% of the functionality (minus a few exclusive titles). In fact consoles nowadays are just PCs running a custom build of a general-purpose OS. The…

You don't need to root an Android device to load applications from outside the Play store. The security warning is pretty accurate and useful for most people but if you want to load apps from outside the store then you aren't most people so it shouldn't matter. There's a reason alternatives to iOS and Android haven't picked up, some of those reasons are because for those that care to side load apps they can already d…

In future versions of Android, you will need to enable developer mode on Android to install applications outside of the Play Store.

Google has hindered Android so that it doesn't allow third party app stores to install apps in the background, upgrade apps or batch install apps like the Play Store can.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#129

Post by ballenf »

inetknght wrote: post #88
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

> destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up I'm not convinced that the console ecosystem would be destroyed if you forced them all to open up. Quite the contrary: I'd happily invest in consoles if I could build it myself with open hardware.

But the current ecosystem depends on selling the hardware at a loss. We would still have consoles, but the ecosystem would necessarily change.

If consoles were not price subsidized like now, their prices would go up and sales would be affected. Presumably there'd just be fewer people who could afford to buy the latest one. You might see lower or higher specs in consoles since the market would be a little more niche. Xbox might merge fully into Windows 10 and the line between console and gamer PC may disappear.

At the very least, I think we can all agree that the console ecosystem would change. Maybe "destroy" is too strong, but maybe not.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#130

Post by smnrchrds »

CharlesW wrote: post #121
danShumway wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've commented to the same effect at least 2 or 3 times over the duration of this lawsuit, but just to keep repeating: if you get too picky about who is and isn't allowed to advocate for you, eventually everyone will stop advocating for you. A billion dollar company is completely necessary to tackle Apple. This stuff is important, and advocates for user-freedom and device ownership can't afford to put every company t…

> A billion dollar company is completely necessary to tackle Apple. Absolutely not. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/22/apple-approves-hey-email-app...

> A billion dollar company is completely necessary to tackle Apple [in court].

The in court part was implied in the context of the discussion. Yes, Apple may decide to have mercy on your soul and not fight you in court. But if they decide to fight you, they will win. After all, when fighting Apple, single digit billionaires have no effective access to the legal system.

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