Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#971

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

> selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy

Are these your kids you're taking care of, or orphans you adopted for the sole reason of benefiting society?

Let's be realistic - few people having children care about market demand.

There are plenty of things I could do that might benefit society, I still have to do them on my own time/dime. If you think it's a raw deal - don't have children; If you want to have them anyway, don't pass it off as a selfless act, and accuse society of being "extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy" for not supporting your decision.

> complaining that the cancer patient gets extra time off so why don't I?

Did the cancer patient make a decision to have cancer?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#972

Post by aaomidi » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

robbiemitchell wrote: post #748

aaomidi wrote: post #152

What I find short sighted about these policies are they don't realize that people without children can also feel stressed and need more time off. e.g. if you're single during this time, you are completely isolated from the world, and your colleagues. This can be extremely difficult mentally and on an individual level can be much harder than just someone with a kid. These policies shouldn't be "oh if you have kids you…

Taking care of a child isn't time off, it's work. And it's not even time away from work because you're still getting pinged on Slack, still expected to review Google docs or leave people blocked, still missing meetings or dialing in (poorly) because they can't be rescheduled, and generally feeling guilty that you can't get enough done. All while trying to handle a baby, or monitor a first grader attending live school…

Well that's not what this article is really talking about.

Microsoft for example has 12 week leave for parents during the pandemic.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#973

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

jdm2212 wrote: post #274

nicbou wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

Someone has to provide the goods and services you'll consume when you're old. Those people are today's kids, whose parents are doing you a big favor at considerable expense to themselves. Raising children isn't like smoking, a hobby, a side hustle, or other miscellaneous personal obligations. It's more like military service and jury duty -- an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we kn…

I'd sooner all children be created in a test tube, raised in government facilities, staffed by payed "parents" that are vetted as strictly as adopters are.

That won't happen: Parents will insist on raising their kids (with their DNA), their way, without any strict oversight, or societal interference. The "essential service" is as much about the desires of the parent, than the desires of society.

And as for "society as we know it" - what if I don't care for society as we know it?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#974

Post by names_are_hard » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

jansan wrote: post #144

loosescrews wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, the pandemic has changed everyone's life created stress for everyone. These policies seem to indicate that non-parents don't have an additional burden worth recognizing. It is easy to see it this way too as most of the managers and executives at big tech companies are parents. For young non-parent tech workers, this may be the first time that they have to figure out how to feed themselves during t…

Is this a joke? My 12 year old son would be able to cook for himself if it was required. Of course the kitchen would be a total mess. With instructions like the video below everybody can learn how to cook within a few days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw_Ze9zIafM

Consider that the issues may be psychological. I'm sure I could learn how to cook, I already know how to make a few things. But finding the strength to plan meals, to choose what to eat and then to prepare it when you're not really interested in the food and nothing really tastes that good is a lot harder.

I don't own a scale but I wouldn't be surprised if I lost weight since I started working from home. And not in a good way...I've always eaten insufficiently but at least in the office there was food readily available so I ate about two meals per day. Now I'm eating about once per day and I'm perpetually hungry.

My point is that everyone has different struggles. What seems trivial to one person can be a lifelong struggle for someone else. For many, the disruption caused by this pandemic upsets a very delicate house of cards that kept them sane and functioning. Some of those people might even be parents. :)

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#975

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

onetimemanytime wrote: post #179

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

>>If anything, I'm thankful for all those people with kids who will Bravo!! Your choice or luck in life is yours. But kids will pay for your social security, will pay taxes to maintain the city/state/country and will be the soldiers and military guarding you. That's just the selfish part.

Why should I pay for your locally-grown children when I have alternatives?

Say each woman has maybe one child late in life, so the population has a half-life of about 35 years.

In exchange, I get to double the educated workforce of my society, which makes it produce more economic output. I also get the performance advantages of diversity.

The only thing I have to do to keep things working is attract a number of immigrants equal to 50% of the population each generation. Which, because the scheme generates lots of wealth, is not hard to do.

So what's the value-add for your alternative?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#976

Post by jelliclesfarm » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #935

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well..if I could cry a river, it wouldn’t be for you. Look, it’s not personal. It’s about the money. Please feel free to donate your money. How about turning that non judgemental POV to those who don’t care to be on your side.

I'm not claiming to be "non judgmental" here. I'm saying there's a place for basic human compassion. If you don't get that, I think you're a shallow, pathetic, and sad person. Feel free to disagree. YMMV. And the really weird thing here, is that I'm the person that the stereotypes would suggest would be on the other side of this discussion. I'm totally on-board with Ayn Rand's notion of "the virtue of selfishness" an…

Yes. I agree. No one died. It’s a matter of 1. Time management 2.Resource management 3. Not having a sense of entitlement.

They have to deal with it like the rest of do.

The milk of human kindness will dry up very quickly when parents and their supporters go around claiming that the act of personal procreation subsidized by the whole entire rest of us is a selfless sacrifice for the entire human species.

Yes, my mileage varies re your opinion about me being ‘shallow, pathetic and sad’. Please feel free to fuck off.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#977

Post by cascom » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

marbletiles wrote: post #928

cascom wrote: post #920

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen this play out with colleagues/listened to the griping - where the resentment comes in (in addition to the items already discussed) some of the self righteousness of the people with kids vs. non-kids “I really can’t be doing this weekly midnight call with Asia...I have kids” as if having kids was akin to solving world hunger and people without kids couldn’t possibly be doing something meaningful with their t…

"I solve world hunger" is a high bar to set for people to establish boundaries with their employers. "I can't do this weekly midnight call" should really be enough. That makes things better for everyone: it means the people without kids can also say they won't attend, even if that's because they've got something planned in a bar. Adding in the details of kids is because the labour relationship is already wrong. Covid…

You miss my point the friction is often with colleagues (in addition to manager/employer) as the co-worker who is seeking a reduced workload often acts holier-than-thou with regards to needing someone to work more on their behalf, rather than being contrite...

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#978

Post by elindbe2 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

To some extent all firms have to grade on a curve, so does it really hurt me if my parent coworkers are less able to deliver? If anything it would help me comparatively, though maybe at an overall cost to the firm's goals (which are different from my personal goals).

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#979

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

RankingMember wrote: post #958

renewiltord wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone has to provide the goods and services you'll consume when you're old. Those people are today's kids... Or immigrant labour. I'm not a parent-hater or a child-hater ( One Billion Americans Go Go Go!) but you can import a lot of people. Heck I'd boost the economy by sustained long term importation of labour to bolster birth so that we can target long term of a billion Americans.

But why? Do we not look down the road and see that this is basically like an endless arms race, with the environment and the long-term survivability of the planet itself hanging in the balance? Are people happier when they live in a country of 300 million versus a country of 150 million? I completely don't understand the interest some people seem to have in increasing population "just because bigger number".

You need to add people to avoid demographic inversion. The Earth can easily sustain way more people. And besides, we want all those people to be here. We'll bring in the best and create a hotbed of blinding innovation - teching up into renewables and new energy sources. Maybe one among the 700 million will be the next Elon Musk and we'll be rocketing towards a cleaner Earth.

We owe the coming generations one last push to glory.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#980

Post by cc23 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

This whole thread makes me think that we all work too much. People are upset that those with children are given more schedule flexibility than those who do not have children. It seems like straight up jealousy. Instead of resenting parents, resent your manager and ask for ( or demand) what you want.

The argument that other workers need to make up for the slack left by parents does not really make sense; you just add tasks to your backlog, and do them when you have time. You should be in control of your own schedule, and don't let your manager just extend your workday. If your manager does not respect your time and is overworking you, quit. As engineers, we are not punching a time clock. If you are, take issue with that, not the flexibility some other coworkers are getting (flexibility that they need).

If you also want more schedule flexibility, push for it. Talk to your manager. Organize with your fellow employees. Organize with other engineers. Start a union (gasp!).

Work-life balance is always a balance. Our jobs should take note of what we do outside of work and how that affects our ability to work. We are people, not mindless, identical worker bees. Our life outside of work is most likely more important to us than our life at work.

Having children is very much unlike most other activities in that you cannot quit. You can quit a side hustle, you can quit a sport. But you can't quit being a parent. So when a parent turns to their boss and says "I need more flexibility", the manager has to give that flexibility or the worker is going to have to find a new job that does give that flexibility. Usually capitalism will extract as much time from a worker as possible, forcing the worker to give up many things in the name of work. It's impossible to give up your child though, so obviously capitalism has to yield there. But with better labor organization, capitalism will yield to other things too.

If we all want schedule flexibility and more time so badly, let's unionize and get that. Not resent our working parents, who most likely have more on their plate and less free time than non-parents, even with the flexibility.