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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#481

Post by simion314 »

pjmlp wrote: post #464
simion314 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the judge decides that Apple abuses are legal the Google will do it too, then the you will say "Buy a FSF phone if you don't want Silicon Valley abuses, nobody is forcing you to have a phone or Internet"

What abuses? They are doing nothing that game consoles haven't been doing for 40 years now, or mobile stores since J2ME, Brew, Windows CE/Pocket PC locked to the mobile operator.

OK. Let's assume that Apple wins. Smartphones makers can legally completely lock the users so you run only what they approve. In your opinion if Android is locked then is the argument "use Android if you don't like iOS walls" completely obliterated?

I am curious if TikTok gets banned and then will Apple remove the app from existing phones or somehow block it and will they do it for non US citizens (inside and outside US).

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#482

Post by DonaldPShimoda »

stale2002 wrote: post #316
DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhhh well isn't it more like Tesla? There are no Tesla dealerships in the traditional sense — only Tesla-owned sales locations. You can't buy a new Tesla from any local dealership; you can only get them directly from Tesla's stores. You can switch to Android, and in fact Android holds the global majority of smartphone users (yes yes, iOS is the majority in the US by a small margin). I think we need to rethink the who…

> You can't buy a new Tesla from any local dealership; you can only get them directly from Tesla's stores. No, not really. I am pretty sure that it is perfectly legal for other people to buy and then resell teslas. I do not believe that Tesla is suing people who resell Teslas. > the global majority of smartphone users In the USA, the Iphone has about 50% of the smart phone market. And when it comes to US anti-trust l…

> I am pretty sure that it is perfectly legal for other people to buy and then resell teslas.

We're not talking about reselling — we're talking about people selling brand-new product. Most people don't buy a Toyota new from Toyota directly; they go to a local Toyota dealership. But you can't buy a new Tesla through a dealership, because Tesla doesn't allow it. You can only buy a new Tesla through Tesla directly.

> In the USA, the Iphone has about 50% of the smart phone market. And when it comes to US anti-trust law, thats all that matters.

You missed my point. I was saying that Android is a viable alternative to iOS, as shown by the fact that most people in the world (and many people in the US) use Android instead of iOS. If the policies of iOS are not to your liking, you can choose to not support the platform.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#483

Post by pjmlp »

simion314 wrote: post #481
pjmlp wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What abuses? They are doing nothing that game consoles haven't been doing for 40 years now, or mobile stores since J2ME, Brew, Windows CE/Pocket PC locked to the mobile operator.

OK. Let's assume that Apple wins. Smartphones makers can legally completely lock the users so you run only what they approve. In your opinion if Android is locked then is the argument "use Android if you don't like iOS walls" completely obliterated? I am curious if TikTok gets banned and then will Apple remove the app from existing phones or somehow block it and will they do it for non US citizens (inside and outside…

No, because that is how game consoles have been doing for 40 years now.

I also don't get to choose what goes into my cable tv box software although it runs some strange Linux distribution, and I really don't care.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#484

Post by throwaway34241 »

pjmlp wrote: post #462
simion314 wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, except for Fortnite (very popular ) and other apps tha tApple don't like(Hey,Wordpress) or apps that US does not like ,and the apps that indie developers can't afford to publish(small games that have Win,Mac,Linux and Android version) , and maybe GPL(maybe it changed) apps, but except all those apps consumers can get all the apps they want. But can you write me a logical phrase about what should happen if a…

That is exactly what I look for as judge decision. It has been legal since ever, game consoles have 40 years of history by now. And back in the 16 bit days, one would need to pay for SDKs. PCs only became open due to IBM's failure to keep ownership of their creation, and Compaq's cleverness in clean room reverse engineering. Since Windows 8 I am a big fan of Windows store app.

> PCs only became open due to IBM's failure to keep ownership of their creation

> Since Windows 8 I am a big fan of Windows store app

Do you think it would have been better if PCs were not open (so going through IBM or Microsoft was the only effective way to distribute software)?

In certain ways the freedom that PCs allow is less convenient than having everything go through a central authority, but as one example I don't think web browsers would have been allowed to develop as they did under this model (since forcing more areas of software development to use platform-specific native apps would be more advantageous for the platform owners with market share).

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#485

Post by rhn_mk1 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #459
speeder wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What game requires GoG Galaxy? EDIT: even googled it, found out Darkest Dungeon by default install a version that does need GoG Galaxy, but the DRM-free version is available on GoG site too, just need to choose that downloader instead. But that was it. Didn't found any other obvious complaints of GoG Galaxy being required.

Northgard requires Galaxy for single-player content. It's not subtle about it. Your response says more about what you can tell with a quick google search than anything else. I'm fascinated that I've been complaining about this here on HN for months, and the only response I ever get -- which comes up every time -- is "what are you talking about, that's not true". This isn't a matter of opinion. It's not even difficult…

When checking Northgard, Galaxy seems to be required for "online content". So it at least seems right that Galaxy is not optional for some stuff.

However, I haven't found any evidence that Galaxy is required for single player. In fact, I found evidence to the contrary: the game has a Linux version, where Galaxy is not available.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#486

Post by beaner »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #408
beaner wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if the app was permitted to be installed outside of the app store, it would make more money, meaning the app store offers negative utility to some developers. Fortnite is a huge brand outside of iOS. It iOS did not make the success of Fortnite. Epic doesn't need the app store's advertising to succeed, and being forced to go through this bottleneck only hampers them.

It’s not about advertising. It’s about trust building. Apple has earned trust with me as a user. When I download an app from Apple’s stores it extends its trust to those apps. I feel more comfortable spending money on iOS because of that trust. Take away the trust, and I promise there is significantly less money to be made.

If that were true, Epic would not want to offer its app outside of the app store. But it does, because it's more profitable.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#487

Post by beaner »

donor20 wrote: post #418
valuearb wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The App Store generates nearly 10 times as much revenues for developers per device sold as Google Play. How is building a safer walled garden that attracts the highest spending customers and makes them extremely comfortable with buying apps and subscriptions not a massive amount of utility?

Exactly this. I pretty happily try out subscription apps on iOS (which I rarely to never do online). Why? It's darn easy to cancel. I get a reminder in advance even. This contrasts in my experience with nearly EVERY other auto-billing approach out there. The time I sometimes spend calling people to cancel stuff (that I could sign up for online) is ridiculous. Another nice touch that builds trust. I once deleted an ap…

Apple once let somebody hack my account and purchase the same $20 app 15 times. When I complained, they ignored me. When I charged back the purchases, they canceled my Apple account. Purchasing the same app more than once on the same device shouldn't even be possible. This was back in 2011, but... definitely didn't build trust.

But you guys aren't arguing the actual point anyway. The question is whether the forced app store is always a plus for developers, not users. The answer is certainly no. And the answer is also no for users who can manage their own trust, and could happily live with direct downloads outside of the app store. They pay higher prices, and are forced to effectively subsidize everyone else.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#488

Post by Crosseye_Jack »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #459
speeder wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What game requires GoG Galaxy? EDIT: even googled it, found out Darkest Dungeon by default install a version that does need GoG Galaxy, but the DRM-free version is available on GoG site too, just need to choose that downloader instead. But that was it. Didn't found any other obvious complaints of GoG Galaxy being required.

Northgard requires Galaxy for single-player content. It's not subtle about it. Your response says more about what you can tell with a quick google search than anything else. I'm fascinated that I've been complaining about this here on HN for months, and the only response I ever get -- which comes up every time -- is "what are you talking about, that's not true". This isn't a matter of opinion. It's not even difficult…

Looks like in the case of Northgard their conquest mode has some server side stuff happening in that mode which then requires the use of GOG Galaxy :-S

https://www.gog.com/forum/northgard/warning_gog_galaxy_is_re...

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#489

Post by parasubvert »

kbenson wrote: post #291
valuearb wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between having your PC not work because of viruses and your phone. Since day one security and safety have been the most important feature for iPhone, and the biggest reason consumers select it.

> Since day one security and safety have been the most important feature for iPhone, and the biggest reason consumers select it. That's ridiculous. That has nothing to do with the reason people selected it when it came out. It was pretty, it had features no other phone really had, such as a browser that rendered the same as the desktop and good touch controls, but security and safety had nothing to do with it.

It’s not ridiculous at all - all those reasons you list mattered (though arguably iPhone had fewer features than most phones, Safari notwithstanding), but the tipping points were the App Store and Exchange integration in iOS 2.0 summer 2008. And the iPhone 3G model. that matched the bar that Blackberry had set for security.

Companies allowed the switch to iPhone when they realized that it was in theory as secure as Blackberry, and didn’t require a BES server.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#490

Post by [deleted] »

cf_ wrote: post #203

I really wish there was a third party - the customer - actually represented in this trial. Apple and Epic arguing over what is best for the customer, while clearly they are having their own interests in mind, screams for the actual customers to be represented. The whole argument about them promoting an app „for free“ is a bit ridiculous. They clearly knew the amount of commission they were going to earn from pushing…

[deleted]
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