Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#921

Post by zo1 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:22 PM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #682

wmsiler wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they chose to have children, and I chose not to Up until the pandemic, my work schedule had almost never been affected by me being parent in any way. I chose to have kids knowing that my wife and I would be able to continue working without this significantly impacting our jobs (after the first several weeks after they were born, of course), and that has always been true until this. You are acting as though parents f…

I do not agree with this. Even side hustles have been adversely affected by the pandemic. Quite nearly everything in our lives has been. Parents deserve all the concessions that can be afforded, but people without kids should also be afforded the same. Having children is a personal choice in the end, it's a right, but nothing special in anyway. People should not be penalized for not making that choice, just like they…

It's special in that it is a fundamental part of our society. It moves society forward, it brings forth new generations and brings meaning to our existence. How about we turn it around and say that people that choose not to procreate be penalized?

You argument doesn't work in that it can just as easily be applied the other way if we assume having kids is the default state. We could further argue that not having kids is an advantage, hence why should parents be penalized for not having made the same choice as those that didn't.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#922

Post by wittyreference » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:34 PM UTC

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #286

Reedx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only after having a kid did I fully realize just how much time and freedom I had.

Freedom to go to bars (closed), clubs (closed), trips (not happening), concerts (canceled), conventions (postponed indefinitely), festivals (closed), etc... Most things childfree people get meaning out of are canceled until further notice. You still have your parenthood. What do we get? Extra work for equal pay? Great, that'll make the pandemic suck less.

Time to sit down and read a book for 30 minutes. I miss that.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#923

Post by rglullis » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:38 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #459

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo…

If it is a global pandemic, what is the benefit of having state-sponsored childcare if the schools ought to be closed?

Unless child-care workers are immune to the virus, they have to stay at home like everyone else, likely taking care of their own kids as well...

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#924

Post by quadrifoliate » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:42 PM UTC

robbiemitchell wrote: post #751

quadrifoliate wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing I wish I could make my childless peers grok is that THERE IS NO VACATION when you have young kids. As a childless person who has nevertheless helped a lot with childcare while growing up in a different country, here is a simple family-based solution – ask your family's older members to move in and help with childcare if possible, or move close by. Or ask a cousin or an aunt or a sister to move in with you…

One example for you: My parents are dead or gone. We moved in with wife's parents for a few months. It was a lifesaver. But (a) they were still not quite retired and couldn't help much, (b) they're older and don't have a lot of energy, (c) they were "over it" with Covid relatively quickly and wanted to take way more risks than we did. Oh, and they have four kids, three of whom have multiple kids. We can't all just as…

I am sorry to hear about your parents.

> Life is not at all simple.

This is the primary thesis of all the pro-parent arguments in this thread. And the response from a lot of people is is “Yes, and this is similar to all the other hard family-type situations that people have already found themselves in over the past few decades, and been unable to get help from work for”.

Overall if the outcome from these discussions is a recognition of what you said, and a willingness to be flexible because of people's life circumstances, I'm all for it. If anyone is benefiting from extraordinary flexibility as a parent during this time, they should try and pay it forward by recognizing other people's needs and life circumstances in the future, and being willing to accommodate them by default in the future instead of as a special dispensation.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#925

Post by liveoneggs » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:44 PM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #524

Waterluvian wrote: post #291

One thing I wish I could make my childless peers grok is that THERE IS NO VACATION when you have young kids. I’m taking this week off and people speak as if I’m on vacation. Please please hear my words literally: my job is my break. Weekends are more physically and intellectually exhausting than weekdays when I get to $&@# off to work for eight hours. My paid time off is a way to give us a fighting chance at laundry…

That is called life. There is no vacation when you have a sick spouse, or bought a new house, or are in a car accident. Your job shouldn't be your break, regardless of your situation. My wife is at a FAANG company currently covering for 4 people who all get double digit weeks off because they chose to have children. Does she get any time off for literally working 18 hour days 7 days a week? No of course not.

what happens if she stops doing that

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#926

Post by cseleborg » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 12:51 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #160

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

This rhetoric of parents having made the choice to have children and its underlying assumption that we shouldn't complain quite as loudly now really makes me cringe. At the very least, it's worth noting that 100% of people promoting this argument are someone else's children. One only has the privilege of participating in the debate because someone else became a parent.

Having children can be a choice in the implementation details like when, how many etc. and at the same time a benefit to, and a necessity for, society in the grand scheme of things. I don't expect praise or a medal for having children, but I do expect support and recognition. The same argument, by the way, goes to other caregivers and professions with a comparable contribution to society as a whole.

But let's turn to another question instead. Is the way we think about productivity, compensation and performance still appropriate now that we've transitioned from business-as-usual world to a global battlefield of sorts with all its chaos, unpredictability and lack of controllability? What would happen if "best effort" replaced "highest return" going forward? I'm sure there are tons of other questions that could help challenge our current thinking and move the needle on making the world a better place.

That would feel like an appropriate middle finger gesture towards The Virus, wouldn't it?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#927

Post by Loughla » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #667

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

I think you missed the point of the article entirely. The complaints aren’t so much about what parents do get, but instead about what childless employees don’t get. When your parent coworkers are tossing extra work over the fence to you, ditching critical meetings at the last second without delegating, which in turn forces you to stay late and put the pedal to the metal for weeks on end to maintain their productivity…

That sounds like a really shitty co-worker, regardless of having children or not.

If your co-worker can't prioritize with accommodations for childcare and the like, then s/he needs to be fired.

I am now, after months of fighting with my administration, allowed partial remote work to cover for the days we do not have childcare after school for my kid. The expectation being that my job is done, regardless of where I am. The understanding being that if my job isn't getting done, I will get fired, regardless of whether I'm in the office or not.

I would argue that the situation you present is either a) over the top, or b) a shitty co-worker using an excuse to get out of work.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#928

Post by marbletiles » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

cascom wrote: post #920

marbletiles wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they should be unhappy about that: at their managers. Not at their colleagues attempting to care for children during a pandemic. I've heard a related thing about US workers resenting colleagues for taking paid time off for similar reasons, and it's just as weird to my European eyes. The difference a decent labour movement (or the legacy of one) can make to industrial relations is stark

I’ve seen this play out with colleagues/listened to the griping - where the resentment comes in (in addition to the items already discussed) some of the self righteousness of the people with kids vs. non-kids “I really can’t be doing this weekly midnight call with Asia...I have kids” as if having kids was akin to solving world hunger and people without kids couldn’t possibly be doing something meaningful with their t…

"I solve world hunger" is a high bar to set for people to establish boundaries with their employers.

"I can't do this weekly midnight call" should really be enough. That makes things better for everyone: it means the people without kids can also say they won't attend, even if that's because they've got something planned in a bar. Adding in the details of kids is because the labour relationship is already wrong.

Covid has surely shown that when required to companies can suddenly be incredibly flexible in all sorts of ways that were "never happen" before. This "you must work for us at midnight too" is just another example.

(This is all-too-similar to how people sometimes still talk about accessibility requirements. "The self-righteousness of people demanding ramps everywhere! We already added a lift from the back alley basement entrance which usually works, and that hurt profits that month. They knew the building was like this when they took the job")

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#929

Post by UncleMeat » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #312

jdm2212 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to provide the goods and services you'll consume when you're old. Those people are today's kids, whose parents are doing you a big favor at considerable expense to themselves. Raising children isn't like smoking, a hobby, a side hustle, or other miscellaneous personal obligations. It's more like military service and jury duty -- an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we kn…

Then is it cool if I skip a few meetings to volunteer to help the homeless? We already heavily subsidise child-rearing through taxes and other benefits. As I said elsewhere, there are mechanisms for supporting parents already. If you tried to let any other charitable endeavour take over your work schedule, you wouldn't expect your compensation to remain unaffected. I'm not resentful at parents. It just seems complete…

Actually yes. Companies like Facebook and Google explicitly offer employees the ability to volunteer on company time (up to a limit).

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#930

Post by Loughla » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #673

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

I always volunteered to work more, I travel more than my married peers, I'm willing to give up some holidays and be more flexible, with the caveat that I get whatever time off I need without reservation - its a social contract, and I believe strongly that it takes a village to raise a child.

This is how our office functions. My younger, single staff are more willing to work holidays and travel, but the implicit understanding is that they get the cushier assignments, and are allowed more flexibility during the regular week. Everyone is happier that way.

People with kids get their holidays, single people get to be young, single people whenever they want.

It's sort of like being flexible and meeting people where they are in life is the best thing for everyone.