Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#881

Post by PestoDiRucola » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:14 AM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

Having kids is a conscious choice you make and hopefully one weighs all the pros and cons when one makes such choice. Getting cancer is not.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#882

Post by user5994461 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:17 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #459

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo…

>>> it's only like $500/mo

In France the large majority of workers make 1000 - 2000 euro a month after taxes. Half of it going to rent like in every city. That means people may have a couple hundreds euros left at the end of the month in disposable income after rent, food, gas, taxes, etc...

That is to say 500/month for childcare is insanely expensive and unaffordable!

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#883

Post by jmspring » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

I’ll take the rep hit.

But as a childless middle aged employee... I think we need to reign things in and less experienced expecting the world need to actually prove themselves beyond leet code and one prior couple year experience.

Those with families, should expect the younger snots to be sympathetic because during this time those same younger snots are bitching about being stuck inside with third roommates, hang outs limited, etc.

My point - regardless of your situation, Covid sucks. Those dealing with responsibility for others is a hardship; those expecting the world of opportunity and bitching about lack of progress, suck a fat one; we are all in this together.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#884

Post by piva00 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

ergocoder wrote: post #653

ak217 wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your other points, but: > we already subsidise child-rearing through taxation. Single, childless people are taxed at a higher rate In the US, being married is a tax advantage only if one partner earns much more than the other. Otherwise it's a wash. In the US, the child tax credit is $2K per child per year. In most cases, this does not come close to covering the costs of raising a child. So, no, for mos…

But having child is your choice. It's so strange to complain that government doesn't cover the cost of your child. You choose to have your child. I'm sure you plan to support your child. This is like me complaining that government doesn't subsidize my Tesla.

A Tesla is a consumer good, a child is an investment in the future of the society.

I'm childless, I will very likely be childless my whole life but this attitude is both: very naive, very ignorant and very very reductionist.

I'm happy that my taxes here in Sweden pay for child support, childcare and schools that I won't ever use, because that is the basic fabric of this society.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#885

Post by kelnos » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #160

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

I don't fully agree with you. Back when I worked in retail or fast food, smokers could step out for a 5 minute smoke break every once in a while. As a non-smoker, I wasn't allowed to just sit there for 5 minutes. At the end of the day, we got paid the same, but smokers got 30 minutes off, courtesy of the non-smokers who picked up the slack. Likewise, parents are excused from work because they have children. I fully a…

> That being said, they chose to have children, and I chose not to.

I don't think we should disadvantage parents because they failed to take into account the possibility of a once-in-a-century pandemic when planning their family. This reads as "oh, don't want to have extreme work+family stress during a global pandemic? Don't choose to have kids!"

> Whatever I have going on instead can't have priority over my work schedule. Whether it's a side hustle or a little league baseball team, it has to wait.

You're mistaking wants with needs. Child care isn't optional. Parents don't want to take time away from their workday to care for their kids right now, but they have to. You can't just stick a 5 year old in a room and be like "mommy/daddy has grown-up stuff to do, see you in 8 hours, try not to kill yourself, and oh, learn how to feed yourself as well".

Your side hustle or baseball team are things you want to do, and can easily wait until the weekend or after hours. Child care is something that must be done, all day long, every day, whether someone wants to or not at any given moment.

> However, if this arrangement is to last, then childless employees should also get time for their personal obligations, whatever they might be.

Childless people don't have work-hours personal obligations unless they choose to. And I expect any employer, under normal times, to frown upon anyone, parent or non-parent, who tries to get out of work due to personal obligations they've intentionally set up to conflict with work.

As a non-parent, I have exactly the same amount of time for my personal obligations as I did pre-COVID. COVID has not given me new required responsibilities during work hours, but parents have gotten that in spades. If you do have a new COVID-related responsibility that needs to be taken care of during work hours (like caring for an at-risk relative), then I think your employer should give you some extra flexibility as well. But your side hustle or little league team is a luxury that didn't need to intersect with work hours pre-COVID, and doesn't need to do so now.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#886

Post by gehsty » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

johnjj257 wrote: post #245

gehsty wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way of thinking about it is that we are all likely to have children at some point, so is a phase that a lot of people go through in their careers, you may not feel like they are working as hard as you (and maybe they aren’t) but if you do end up having kids then they will likely be picking up your slack while you are raising your little ones.

That seems silly to just ignore people who don't have kids because "most do". What do you say to the 50 year old with no children? Sucks to be them?

Clearly it doesn't suck to be them, if the only inconvenience they have had is to support their colleagues during times they have needed it then they are not doing too badly.

Also (unfortunately) people who do not have kids, particularly women, are more likely to progress in their career as they have not taken any career breaks, so I guess that could be seen as an upside, though in my opinion is very unfair.

Overall I think companies should be there to support people when they need it, as a company you should plan your resources so people can take paternal / maternal leave, and also so that the other employees aren't overburdened because of it.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#887

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #291

One thing I wish I could make my childless peers grok is that THERE IS NO VACATION when you have young kids. I’m taking this week off and people speak as if I’m on vacation. Please please hear my words literally: my job is my break. Weekends are more physically and intellectually exhausting than weekdays when I get to $&@# off to work for eight hours. My paid time off is a way to give us a fighting chance at laundry…

[deleted]

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#888

Post by dumb1224 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:30 AM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

kevstev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

The big downside for me having a small child at home is that I could not concentrate on a task for more than half and hour, which is essential for research work. I had to go over stuff again and again because once my thoughts broken I need to follow long trails to pick it up again. I enjoy spending time with family but I have a real urge for uninterrupted work now.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#889

Post by meowtimemania » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:32 AM UTC

w_t_payne wrote: post #853

As a parent, I fear that even in the best of times, parenthood is simply incompatible with the level of time and effort that working in tech demands. I really wish I knew how to resolve this problem, but it feels more like a physical problem, to do with the limits of human attention and learning, than a social one. I suspect there is no easy fix.

I think part-time employment could be a viable solution. Parenting takes time and I’m not sure if there’s enough time in the day to be a parent and work a full time job

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#890

Post by kelnos » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 9:35 AM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #682

wmsiler wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they chose to have children, and I chose not to Up until the pandemic, my work schedule had almost never been affected by me being parent in any way. I chose to have kids knowing that my wife and I would be able to continue working without this significantly impacting our jobs (after the first several weeks after they were born, of course), and that has always been true until this. You are acting as though parents f…

I do not agree with this. Even side hustles have been adversely affected by the pandemic. Quite nearly everything in our lives has been. Parents deserve all the concessions that can be afforded, but people without kids should also be afforded the same. Having children is a personal choice in the end, it's a right, but nothing special in anyway. People should not be penalized for not making that choice, just like they…

> Even side hustles have been adversely affected by the pandemic.

Were you working on your side hustle during normal work hours before the pandemic? No? So is the pandemic stopping you from working on your side hustle after work hours now? No? I didn't think so.

> Parents deserve all the concessions that can be afforded, but people without kids should also be afforded the same.

I think you're looking at this in the wrong way, as if employers are giving parents some sort of special gift by being flexible around child care responsibilities. Child care has to get done, period. It's not opt-out. Your side hustle can wait until after work hours... as it always has.

> Having children is a personal choice in the end, but nothing special in anyway. People should not be penalized for not making that choice, just like they should not be rewarded either.

Ah, here's that tired argument again. Yes, it is a personal choice. But are we really going to penalize children because their parents, when deciding to have kids, failed to take into account the possibility of global pandemic making child care interfere with their work responsibilities? Parents aren't getting "rewarded" for having kids here; they're simply getting time to do that which they must do. Child care is unique among non-work obligations in that it's not something you can reschedule, put off, or decide not to do. There's no "reward" here.

I still don't understand how you think non-parents like us are being "penalized", though. My work day during COVID is, scope-wise, exactly the same as it was pre-COVID. I get out of bed, work for 8-10 hours, and then stop and do whatever I want. I was already working from home most of the time pre-COVID, but as a bonus, people who went to an office every day now get their commute time back! If anything, non-parents are getting a reward during COVID that parents don't get, because their former commute time is now filled with... you guessed it... more child care.