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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

wsj.com

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#191

Post by Razengan »

pier25 wrote: post #182
bhouston wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a contractual standpoint outside of emotion, I think Apple will absolutely destroy Epic Games' position here in court. The only think Epic Games can hope for at this point is for the court to find Apple is a monopoly and engaging in unfair business practices but I think that type of finding isn't even in the court's purview -- I think that anti-trust needs to be a suit from the US government? https://en.wikipedi…

Maybe Apple will win in court, but it is losing trmendously in the dev and gamer space. I'm sure this was Epic's plan all along.

Many non-Apple users are sick of Epic's wolf-crying too, and companies bigger than Epic have tried smearing Apple before (see Samsung).

Meanwhile, Apple is enjoying hereto-unseen levels of financial and critical success.

The only things the majority of regular people are paying attention to is when the next iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, AirPods etcetera are going to drop.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#192

Post by Razengan »

quenix wrote: post #49
adsjhdashkj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt like every poor quality controlled release they've had on OSX for the last 10 years has been trying to do that. I feel lost. Wanting to have a simple OS that lets me develop with unix tools but also "just works". The expense i pay for Apple products no longer follows this, for me.

Apart from Catalina, I’ve been satisfied with macOS release quality.

Big Sur is already a big improvement, even in beta, over Catalina.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#194

Post by projektfu »

pier25 wrote: post #184
gpm wrote: post #16

Brief: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265...

> Left unchecked, Epic’s conduct threatens the very existence of the iOS ecosystem and its tremendous value to consumers.

By that they mean if developers force Apple’s hand to pull the apps that consumers want, those consumers might choose another device next time?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#195

Post by [deleted] »

samatman wrote: post #122
bhouston wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I saw this counter argument before, and I wonder the same thing, but does intellectual consistency matter much in the court of law?

Courts have broad discretion to conduct the course of lawsuits. In this case, I fully expect the judges to ask some hard questions about why Epic seems so content with the consoles, while taking a bold stand for freedom on mobile, and only mobile. I'll be up in the virtual peanut gallery munching popcorn the whole time. It's gonna be a ride.

[deleted]

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#196

Post by pier25 »

projektfu wrote: post #194
pier25 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Left unchecked, Epic’s conduct threatens the very existence of the iOS ecosystem and its tremendous value to consumers.

By that they mean if developers force Apple’s hand to pull the apps that consumers want, those consumers might choose another device next time?

How would an Epic iOS app store make consumers not buy an iPhone?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#197

Post by projektfu »

pier25 wrote: post #196
projektfu wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that they mean if developers force Apple’s hand to pull the apps that consumers want, those consumers might choose another device next time?

How would an Epic iOS app store make consumers not buy an iPhone?

Let’s say Amazon joined in and started selling Kindle and Audible books without using Apple’s 30% digital cut. Apple would have to pull the Amazon app, possibly the Kindle app. Actually, they’d have to do that if Amazon simply said, Apple won’t let this be sold here on reasonable terms, buy from the website. Amazon would lose some, but Apple would also be crippling iOS. Then Spotify joins in, and Tinder, and Duolingo. All of a sudden, Apple’s platform looks pretty lame.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#198

Post by cf_ »

nullc wrote: post #70
jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

The customer is the product isn't just limited to advertising companies. It follows naturally that Apple considers you their property and believes they can control others doing business with you. Which, in fact, they can-- if you use their products. There is, however, a straightforward way to stop them: Don't use their products.

True, you could stop using their products, but you could also argue that when you buy a product (and not a software license), you should be able to do what you like with that product. It should certainly be within the customers rights to use a physical product the best way they see fit and not the best way the manufacturer sees fit. I mean: I paid for it outright, I received what essentially is a computer by all means and now the manufacturer would like to continue having a say in how I can use it.

I‘ll admit that having the Apple iOS ecosystem is of certain value, but Apple doesn‘t even allow you to install your own OS. My point is that if I buy a hammer, should I be forced to use it only for hammering nails or could I use it for other things as well?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#199

Post by paxys »

ecf wrote: post #163
bww wrote: post #120

This is a very bad look on Apple. Regardless of the enforceability of their agreements, the sense of entitlement that underlies Apple’s position is shocking. The claim that Epic has “lined [its] pockets at Apple’s expense” implies that Apple deserves to sit in the middle of every transaction that happens on their devices and take a margin. This is the world’s most valuable company we’re talking about here; assertions…

> Maybe next Toyota will decide that they deserve a percentage of Uber’s revenue because Toyota's cars help facilitate Uber’s business? There are many car manufacturers that Uber could choose from in just the same way that there are many platforms that developers can develop for. Stop trying to spread the idea that the ability to make apps for the iPhone is an inalienable right.

There aren't many platforms there are exactly two. And the costs of switching between them are significant enough that this argument holds less water by the day.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#200

Post by cafed00d »

beaner wrote: post #50
Traster wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools. This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for…

They seem not quite the same to me. A game built with Unreal Engine is essentially powered by it and would not exist otherwise. A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download. Apple's app store provides no utility to developers other than being the forced walled monopoly that all developers must list through. The proper analogy to Epic charging fo…

>A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download

This is false; unless theoretically means there's no concept of "money" involved in our world.

A game deployed to an iPhone must be compatible with the hardware chip supplied on the iPhone, must be built using APIs designed, built and committed to be supported by the iPhone.

Apps can't be built out of thin air. Programming languages, debuggers, IDEs, distributions channels, commitment to support cost money, time and people's energy. Apple, as a private business, can choose to monetize however they wish to. It would be really dumb for the govt or other parties to dictate what pricing policies Apple has to set for a product they're building. Heck, they're free to ask for a million dollars for each copy of Xcode people use.

Apple is trying to balance the costs of building an iPhone ecosystem with the benefits of ease of accessibility to that ecosystem.

Customers pay Apple to handle _everything_ from rearranging sand to naming functions accessible to developer to make the iPhone.

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