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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#171

Post by EGreg »

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

That’s like the argument for net neutrality because one side already paid for the service. Why can’t both sides pay?

I am an advocate for open source, but I am just wondering in principle what is your argument exactly?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#172

Post by pier25 »

simonh wrote: post #136
tmotwu wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should alarm any developer. Any iOS developer could be at risk to pay Apple punitive damages whenever they determine their rules have been broken.

The punitive damages are not for simply breaking the rules, this is made very clear in the filing, they are for knowingly and deliberately breaking them with a full understanding of the legal consequences for doing so.

The punitive damage could as simple as Apple putting you out of business if you rely mostly on your iOS app to survive.

We've seen this many times, it's not exclusive to the case against Epic.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#173

Post by threeseed »

parasubvert wrote: post #124
kevingadd wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things literally do go from fine to anti-competitive or illegal over time, because context matters and both laws and circumstances change. In one case, the US fought a whole war over something that was previously legal for decades!

This is true, but do people really think it’s the end of history for personal computing and that iOS and Android are the endgame such that they should be regulated like energy utilities? The lack of entrepreneurial imagination is astounding. VR and AR are coming, Facebook and Valve are poised to be the next kings of tech. The current era of Apple and Google has an obvious time limit.

Given how many companies Apple has acquired over the last few years pretty sure they are much further ahead in the AR/VR space than Facebook/Valve.

They just have a tendency to keep things under wraps until the big reveal.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#174

Post by ClumsyPilot »

manicdee wrote: post #168
raydev wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> This license is free to use and incurs 5% royalties when you monetize your game or other interactive off-the-shelf product and your lifetime gross revenues from that product exceed $1,000,000 USD. > And Epic doesn't even provide quality control, a discovery mechanism, or payment processing. Apple takes 30% off all purchases upfront, and maybe they'll cut you a deal if you're Netflix-size. On top of that, Apple's "…

> Epic, however, takes 5%..... after you pull in $1mil in revenue. That's it. That's it, for now. Epic is trying to set themselves up as publisher like Steam. Once they can get first-party status as an app store on iOS their tune will change. This is about money, and one way to make money is to get people hooked on your product then jack up the price.

The comparison is bogus again. Steam is an independant company with real competition ( epic including) and I can drop it on a moment's notice.

How does Epic store become first-party, they get bought by Microsoft? I don't get what you are claiming

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#175

Post by threeseed »

gamblor956 wrote: post #157
supernova87a wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. That's your opinion . That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws. Please be clear about that.

That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws. That is your opinion. Please be clear about that. Currently, what Apple is doing violates EU and US antitrust laws. It's not a matter of what the user wants. It's a matter of Apple abusing its market position.

> Currently, what Apple is doing violates EU and US antitrust laws

Please provide legal documents equivocally stating this.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#176

Post by threeseed »

jrockway wrote: post #107
balls187 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it costs money to develop a platform, it doesn't seem that strange to just charge that upfront when someone buys an iPhone. Epic runs their own digital distribution platform, in which they also take a cut of the sales. Their terms are different than Apples, but they still do take a cut of sales. Epic also takes 5% royalties for any (non-free) game built with Epic's Unreal Engine. Epic and Apple have the same bus…

It doesn't really matter what Epic is doing. Loot boxes, game engines, and game mechanics aren't the issue here. The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. You know what? I played Fortnite and I hated it. I won't be installing Fortnite or buying any skins for it. But, Epic has the right to offer their product to me without interference. Apple already has $1000 of my…

> I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want

And you can. You just need to bypass Apple's security mechanisms.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#177

Post by XMPPwocky »

belltaco wrote: post #149
supernova87a wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to be specific, buying the iPhone comes with access to apps through the the App Store, not any software that you like. That's clear to almost everyone I would think. And it comes without any statement/guarantee about how Apple charges the developers or the agreements there. Most people have no idea, and don't care. Some apps choose to make their apps free, others choose to charge fees. Some want to have their in…

>That would be like saying, I paid for my cell phone, I don't think that cellular carriers should charge me again for the monthly service -- they should bundle it all one. Bad analogy, it'd be like buying the cell tower and getting charged for using it.

I bet this happens- I'm sure somebody will sell you, say, a 1-year license for software required to run an eNB or whatever. Don't pay? No working cell tower for you.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#178

Post by pier25 »

kbenson wrote: post #167
parasubvert wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

arguably the whole reason for iOS’ success is that it is a service, and not just a passive piece of software. I’m not so sure developers would want the alternative of malware-plagued PCs. Previous consumer OSes had major usability and security drawbacks for the average consumer. Through no fault of their own, their computers would gradually get slower and corrupted by 3rd parties. This is similar to the shift to clou…

> I’m not so sure developers would want the alternative of malware-plagued PCs. We would never even be at the level we're at if there weren't those malware-plagued PCs and their open marketplace of software and operating systems competing with each other. > Previous consumer OSes had major usability and security drawbacks for the average consumer. You mean Windows did, because A) it was the OS of the vast majority of…

> Windows has gotten much better

Yeah totally.

I've been using Windows since 3.1 and macOS since Panther.

These days I spend most of my time on macOS but I have a Windows 10 desktop machine and it works beautifully. Performance is way better than on macOS.

If Windows had a better text rendering engine I would probably switch. I just have an irrational disgust for how fonts are rendered on Windows. I know it's subjective but as someone that spends most of its time reading and writing text it's imperative I enjoy that.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#179

Post by ClumsyPilot »

balls187 wrote: post #143
jrockway wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really matter what Epic is doing. Loot boxes, game engines, and game mechanics aren't the issue here. The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. You know what? I played Fortnite and I hated it. I won't be installing Fortnite or buying any skins for it. But, Epic has the right to offer their product to me without interference. Apple already has $1000 of my…

> The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. And, likewise, Apple, as the platform owner, should be able to deny access whatever software they want. You can of course, jailbreak your iphone, or install PWA's that work.

I am just waiting untill car companies as "platform owners" start preventing you from driving to areas they don't like, or exceeding speed limit.

Afterall, you just paid for the car, they still own the software that controls the engine.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#180

Post by LegitShady »

balls187 wrote: post #143
jrockway wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really matter what Epic is doing. Loot boxes, game engines, and game mechanics aren't the issue here. The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. You know what? I played Fortnite and I hated it. I won't be installing Fortnite or buying any skins for it. But, Epic has the right to offer their product to me without interference. Apple already has $1000 of my…

> The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. And, likewise, Apple, as the platform owner, should be able to deny access whatever software they want. You can of course, jailbreak your iphone, or install PWA's that work.

imagine saying this about microsoft when they were dominant
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