Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#151

Post by nullc » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #80

nullc wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The customer is the product isn't just limited to advertising companies. It follows naturally that Apple considers you their property and believes they can control others doing business with you. Which, in fact, they can-- if you use their products. There is, however, a straightforward way to stop them: Don't use their products.

The other way to look at it is that I as a user hire Apple to vet and QA the apps released for iOS and manage my relationship with all those developers on my behalf. That’s the deal I knowingly enter into when I buy an iPhone and I’m quite happy with it. If others aren’t happy with it that’s fine too, just get a different phone. I don’t see any justification for coercing Apple into entering into commercial arrangemen…

This way of looking at it doesn't justify _apple_ having a cause of action against epic for seeking to do business with you, consensually, without apple's intervention.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#152

Post by mstolpm » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:23 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

The price the customer pays is clearly for the package of hardware, operating system and (some) services. The 30% cut developers pay is for a monetized access to Apples iOS APIs. The 99$ fee is for access to developer tools, review processing, "free" access to the platform and more.

Different sides, different business concepts.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#153

Post by gamblor956 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #71

beaner wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They seem not quite the same to me. A game built with Unreal Engine is essentially powered by it and would not exist otherwise. A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download. Apple's app store provides no utility to developers other than being the forced walled monopoly that all developers must list through. The proper analogy to Epic charging fo…

So if stores don’t provide any utility over side loading, how come Epic gave up on relying on side loading on Android, which allows it, and ended up on the Play Store? It’s literally that exact scenario.

Epic still allows Fortnite to be sideloaded.

More importantly, Google does not prohibit sideloading. It simply does not make it convenient to do it.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#154

Post by supernova87a » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #107

balls187 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it costs money to develop a platform, it doesn't seem that strange to just charge that upfront when someone buys an iPhone. Epic runs their own digital distribution platform, in which they also take a cut of the sales. Their terms are different than Apples, but they still do take a cut of sales. Epic also takes 5% royalties for any (non-free) game built with Epic's Unreal Engine. Epic and Apple have the same bus…

It doesn't really matter what Epic is doing. Loot boxes, game engines, and game mechanics aren't the issue here. The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. You know what? I played Fortnite and I hated it. I won't be installing Fortnite or buying any skins for it. But, Epic has the right to offer their product to me without interference. Apple already has $1000 of my…

> The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want.

That's your opinion. That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws.

Please be clear about that.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#155

Post by heckerhut » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

bhouston wrote: post #23

anm89 wrote: post #4

It's as if Apple is on a mission to destroy the credibility and respect they had.

From a contractual standpoint outside of emotion, I think Apple will absolutely destroy Epic Games' position here in court. The only think Epic Games can hope for at this point is for the court to find Apple is a monopoly and engaging in unfair business practices but I think that type of finding isn't even in the court's purview -- I think that anti-trust needs to be a suit from the US government? https://en.wikipedi…

In Europe, private companies can sue based on anti competitive behavior. It’s not limited to government agencies. Makes sense if you think about it. I’d assume it’s similar in the states.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#156

Post by gamblor956 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #142

jrockway wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can write a game without using Unreal Engine. You can't write an iPhone app without Apple's permission, even if you don't use a single byte from their SDK. The "the app store pays for libraries" argument is total bullshit. Apple wants 30% of your Spotify subscription because they saw it, they wanted it, and now they're having a temper tantrum about it. Not because they laid the foundation for Spotify.

In game consoles you can't even start coding for them unless they happen to like you, and on top pay several thousands for a devkit.

This is false.

Sony and MS games can be programmed without licenses or devkits (which make it much easier to debug games by providing debug access not available on retail consoles).

Moreover, devkits are frequently made available for free by both companies to indie developers and even major partners.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#157

Post by gamblor956 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:34 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #154

jrockway wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really matter what Epic is doing. Loot boxes, game engines, and game mechanics aren't the issue here. The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. You know what? I played Fortnite and I hated it. I won't be installing Fortnite or buying any skins for it. But, Epic has the right to offer their product to me without interference. Apple already has $1000 of my…

> The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. That's your opinion . That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws. Please be clear about that.

That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws.

That is your opinion. Please be clear about that.

Currently, what Apple is doing violates EU and US antitrust laws. It's not a matter of what the user wants. It's a matter of Apple abusing its market position.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#158

Post by inopinatus » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

jclardy wrote: post #28

theflyingelvis wrote: post #5

“There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service,” Apple said in the filing. What about forcing someone or some company to use a service (apple's payment systems)?

The sad part to me as an iOS developer is that Apple is essentially calling iOS a "service." I'm a huge Apple fan, but they have been digging themselves a grave in terms of developer goodwill with their reaction to these lawsuits.

Yes, this is essentially an argument that Apple owns the scope of consumer choice and can decide what you, the consumer, may or may not do and see with hardware and software that you have paid for.

It has direct parallels to that age-old argument beloved of software lawyers that consumers do not own their copy of installed software, but are merely borrowing it by the grace of the vendor.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#159

Post by kbenson » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #145

kbenson wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Epic was able to install their own app as a store (what they actually want), they would have at least a few tens of millions of users to start with (there's 116 million iOS Fortnite players). Epic's in the fairly unique position of having a "killer app" that a large portion of the iOS user base would want to install to get the ball rolling on a competing store. Given their rates a much better than Apple's, I imagi…

If is such a killer app, Epic is free to create their own phone OS, it would sell like hot pancakes. You know, actual innovation.

> If is such a killer app, Epic is free to create their own phone OS, it would sell like hot pancakes.

Creating a phone OS wouldn't actually let them compete on the same level, because you can't run anything but iOS on Apple hardware.

The only companies that actually compete at the same level as Apple and Google and Amazon, since they both create the hardware, run an OS on it, and provide a store on it. Any while it's a pain to do (and they take steps to make it not work well, even if it does work), you can install their stores on each other (Amazon Fire store on Android, and Google Play store on Kindle Fire devices).

Not to say that those companies are paragons of openness in their platforms, but Apple is quite it bit farther along the spectrum in locking down their devices, in that you can't run any software other than what they approve on them (unless you jailbreak, but I'm but sure that's legal in many jurisdictions).

> You know, actual innovation.

There are plenty of locations to innovate. Why should epic have to create an OS (which they can't actually run on the hardware the people they are trying to reach are using) just so they can try to provide a better store experience for people. They could "innovate" be being more deterministic in what they accept or reject than Apple and being cheaper. Those are innovations that many customers and developers would welcome.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#160

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #157

supernova87a wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. That's your opinion . That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws. Please be clear about that.

That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws. That is your opinion. Please be clear about that. Currently, what Apple is doing violates EU and US antitrust laws. It's not a matter of what the user wants. It's a matter of Apple abusing its market position.

[deleted]