Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#381

Post by CydeWeys » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

room500 wrote: post #359

CydeWeys wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents are making sacrifices which benefit society as a whole. 100%. We need people to have kids (and for it to be financially possible to do so) because kids are literally the future generations of human society, and if no one is having kids then we'll see a very rapid collapse. This is, incidentally, why it pisses me off when people complain that their pets don't get the same kind of accommodations that children…

I don't understand this sentiment. Farming is critical for society. However, we don't require everyone to pull on their overalls and work the land. Security is critical for society. However, we don't expect every person to pick up their machine gun and jump in a trench. Society is nowhere near a population level that is dangerously low. In fact, we are more concerned with overpopulation and overconsumption. If you ha…

You're not getting the point that, in the aggregate, it is NOT a choice to have farmers, soldiers* , and yes, parents. On an individual level it might be a choice, but society necessarily needs to be structured to get enough of each of those occupations, i.e. to have sufficient numbers of people making each of those choices. And the required population percentage of parents is at least 50X higher than for farmers and soldiers.

And overpopulation/overconsumption isn't a problem. What is a problem is unsustainable growth. Life is much more pleasant today for most people than it was centuries ago because simply having more people allows for more technological development, more sub-specialization, and better efficiencies of scale, and thus paradoxically with more people everyone can have a much higher standard of living than with fewer people. In other words, it isn't zero sum. If the world's population starts rapidly declining then that will be a significant decline in the average standard of living, not an improvement.

* I don't want to get into the argument here whether soldiers are actually necessary; let's just assume for this argument that they are, or replace them with construction workers or whatever.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#382

Post by briandear » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

kevstev wrote: post #140

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

The thing is, there is a contingent of people that support the Democratic Party assuming they benefit or, at the very least, have someone else pay for it. As an example, if you took a cross section of supporters, if they had their taxes increase by 100% to support $some_policy, they would be less inclined to support that increase. But if you say “the rich” should pay for XYZ, then support grows substantially. There are those that would pay higher taxes for altruistic reasons, however, those people are certainly welcome to write a check to the Treasury — but they don’t. When a policy hits close to home: more work, higher taxes, reduced disposable income, suddenly support isn’t quite so robust. If you aren’t charitable to your cubical mate, it’s ironic that one can expect charity for “society.” It’s easy to be charitable when someone else is paying for it, either with money or work. In other words, it’s easier to spend other people’s money and time.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#383

Post by outside1234 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #296

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

And you still have time for HN!

One the most important self care things you can do right now is to take some time for yourself. That is true if you have kids or not.

For many of us, HN is one of those things. It is orthogonal to having enough time - it is more about coping.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#384

Post by goldenchrome » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #211

goldenchrome wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pandemic is exactly how life goes. Barely more than one lifetime ago we had the Spanish Flu, WW1, WW2, multiple market crashes, and so on. Global warming is likely to cause more situations like those in the coming years. Much of this pandemic is overrated. My friends and family aren’t socially distanced. Parks and beaches are actually open. Vacations are very easy and very popular. Social interaction is not a risk…

> My friends and family aren’t socially distanced...Social interaction is not a risk for the vast majority of healthy people. Have you considered that this attitude might be the reason this pandemic has so affected the US in particular?

I’ll care when we legislate against obesity, which causes far more deaths every single year. Until then, it’s just fear mongering.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#385

Post by ip26 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #18

It's simply depressing how parent/kid-hostile society has become... I'm not saying we need explosive population growth. But I feel one of the main purposes of society is raising and protecting children. If you're a human-future-optimist, you want some kind of generation that's better than us to continue on.... I'm not saying you NEED to have kids, but I feel it's part of society's collective duty to consider the next…

It could partly trace back to how we've segmented off our population. I barely interacted with children my entire young adult and adult life until I had my own.

Unfamiliarity breeds contempt, as the saying goes.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#386

Post by oblio » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

room500 wrote: post #359

CydeWeys wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents are making sacrifices which benefit society as a whole. 100%. We need people to have kids (and for it to be financially possible to do so) because kids are literally the future generations of human society, and if no one is having kids then we'll see a very rapid collapse. This is, incidentally, why it pisses me off when people complain that their pets don't get the same kind of accommodations that children…

I don't understand this sentiment. Farming is critical for society. However, we don't require everyone to pull on their overalls and work the land. Security is critical for society. However, we don't expect every person to pick up their machine gun and jump in a trench. Society is nowhere near a population level that is dangerously low. In fact, we are more concerned with overpopulation and overconsumption. If you ha…

Modern technology means that 2% of the citizens of a developed country can feed the rest. That's why nobody wants/needs the average J. to farm.

Modern technology means that only a small percentage of citizens are enough to defend the rest. That's why nobody wants/needs the average J. to fight.

If all of a sudden, say, 50% of the people having children now, in developed countries, would decide to not have children, we'd probably have societal collapse. That's what happened in societies where the population went down by huge percentages in a short time span. Housing markets would collapse, education systems would collapse, healthcare systems would collapse, demand for a million types of things needed by babies and children would collapse (and taking with it many, many professions), etc.

Even if you don't want to have kids, remember:

1. You were once a kid.

2. Your lifestyle is made possible by people that choose to have kids. Especially women, who sacrifice a lot for kids. At least be respectful to them.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#387

Post by WindyLakeReturn » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

throwaway5792 wrote: post #366

jartelt wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not necessarily just hostility to parents. I see it more as hostility to the HR policies in place at some of the companies. A new parent at facebook gets 4 months leave after the birth and then can take another 10 weeks of family leave. Alternatively, non parent employees at facebook can take 3 days off to cope with stress or else need to take sick days. Otherwise they can take sick days, which probably would b…

What's the solution? Allow non parents to take 10 weeks off for health issues? What if then a parent has a baby and then has some other health issues. Can they take 20 weeks off? Or would that be unfair because as parents they can take 20 weeks vs 10 for the single person?

Isn't that a bit like asking what if the parent is given 10 weeks off and then has another kid. Do they get another 10 weeks off or is it unfair that they get 20 while the person having a single kid gets 10?

There is also not a need to immediately jump to 10 weeks over in comparison for mental issues. Improvements can be much more minor, such as not frowning on people using sick days. Not even granting any more time off, just less judgment for using what is already granted.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#388

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #380

jbay808 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Edited to clarify my intended meaning) > I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. For those childless co-workers that wish they could accept the other end of this deal, this phrase is both common and quite painful to hear. Please consider not using it unless you really mean it, which you don't, as you actually wouldn't give up your kids for anything.

“Trade places with” is meant figuratively here, not literally.

[deleted]

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#389

Post by biotech » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #318

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

(Edited to clarify my intended meaning) > I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. For those childless co-workers that wish they could accept the other end of this deal, this phrase is both common and quite painful to hear. Please consider not using it unless you really mean it, which you don't, as you actually wouldn't give up your kids for anything.

Jeez, it's just an expression. They're just saying that it would be way easier to not have to worry about kids at home right now. You're reading way to far into it. They are not saying that they would literally want to trade places, which should be obvious from the statement "I wouldn't give up my kids for anything"

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#390

Post by rdtwo » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #286

Reedx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only after having a kid did I fully realize just how much time and freedom I had.

Freedom to go to bars (closed), clubs (closed), trips (not happening), concerts (canceled), conventions (postponed indefinitely), festivals (closed), etc... Most things childfree people get meaning out of are canceled until further notice. You still have your parenthood. What do we get? Extra work for equal pay? Great, that'll make the pandemic suck less.

Idk man I’ve gone on trips this year and I have kids-! So you are limiting yourself too much. Seriously you don’t understand how much you can still do, ditch those self limiting beliefs and go do something different. Bike, boat, board, camp etc. Once you have kids it’s so much harder