Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#361

Post by smeeth » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #268

ethanwillis wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get the perk of more flexibility because they're providing a service to society, raising children for the next generation. You don't get this perk because you didn't have children. Your contribution is more work because you have more time to do it.

This argument is made again and again in this thread, and it never got addressed. 1. There are already functional mechanisms for contribution. A single, childless person is already contributing more through their taxes. The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing. 2. Child-rearing is given an arbitrary pass that other equally charitable actions wouldn't get. A single, childless person couldn't let his com…

>The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing.

Ah yes, the lofty government subsidy of x > Child-rearing is given an arbitrary pass that other equally charitable actions wouldn't get.

Raising a child is spending 20-40 hrs a week for 18 years and a boatload of money to create another person in the workforce who will spend ~40 years generating GDP and paying taxes. Considering GDP per capita in the USA is ~$62,000 and rising, I think it is pretty safe to assume that your average-ly skilled single childless person contributing anything less than 20 hrs/week to just about any charity isn't even in the ballpark of "equally charitable."

>This model might not be viable forever as the world population keeps growing. This is a whole other can of worms.

Yeah, this is the "The Population Bomb"[2] argument that could possibly be the case but so far has no real evidence beyond hypothesis to support it... since 1968.

[0] https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/default/files/publicat... [1] https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2017/01/13/cost-raising-chil... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#362

Post by quadrifoliate » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

kevstev wrote: post #140

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

> Maybe I am making assumptions here on the general political leanings of those here, but if you are talking about supporting anything like Medicare for all, UBI, BLM, PPP or even just support the Democratic party in general, pulling a little extra weight for those in a time of need is IMHO a relatively small ask that you as an individual can implement compared to those agendas.

I suspect a fair number of the complainers are people with Democratic leanings, and I think I can describe their thought process to you.

I think their problem is that a private company is doing this, not the Government. Suppose someone has to be a caregiver for an elderly relative during COVID. Facebook probably won't offer them 10 weeks for paid leave for doing this, because Facebook's internal cost-benefit metrics tell them that it's not useful. That's why people are resentful – a private company should not be in charge of deciding who gets time to deal with changes as fundamental as this in society. Policies like Medicare for all, compulsory maternity and paternity leave, or caregiver leave implemented by the Government (ideally) take into account the wishes of society as a whole, not a large private company like Facebook. For example, I think caregiver leave would be very popular due to the aging population of the US being a large section of voters, there are already tax credits starting for the same thing.

I am personally fine with giving as much time as is needed for people with families as well as people in a bunch of other situations. Life is complex and we need to help out each other as much as possible. But I fear that the ruthless utilitarianism of most American corporations doesn't play well with this worldview, leading to resentments like the article describes.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#363

Post by sarakayakomzin » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #236

mc32 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Parents are making sacrifices which benefit society as a whole. Those children the parents are taking care of now will be the ones who will provide for the one complaining now via taxes as well as services rendered to them. If anything, companies should be providing more childcare so that more women (as well as some men) will have less of a burden balancing career and caregiving. I see these people as being…

> Parents are making sacrifices which benefit society as a whole. 100%. We need people to have kids (and for it to be financially possible to do so) because kids are literally the future generations of human society, and if no one is having kids then we'll see a very rapid collapse. This is, incidentally, why it pisses me off when people complain that their pets don't get the same kind of accommodations that children…

>This is, incidentally, why it pisses me off when people complain that their pets don't get the same kind of accommodations that children do e.g. on airplanes or in restaurants, or that tax breaks exist for children. Your pets are optional. Children are mandatory.

I'm just glad someone decided to step in and say you were the person who should have children. Mandatory to who? Nobody asked you to make such a noble sacrifice.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#364

Post by woah » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #333

treeman79 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have small elementary age kids. It’s rough. 8-10 interruptions the first couple hours of work. Then meltdown over being hungry. Then afternoon interruptions because they are bored. Lots of crappy reasons, but also because they want me to spend time with them. Also dealing with my own chronic illness. I was managing to cope/hide before Covid. Between it all is a sense of guilt of not getting enough done for work and n…

Move to an area where you can afford a house on one income or two half incomes and stop working so much. If you want to raise a family, raise one. That's your choice. If you want other people to subsidize your productivity and/or income so you can live beyond your means in an area where you can't afford to raise a family, then that's a big ask.

We all subsidize those who live in rural and suburban areas, whether through direct subsidies for highways and internet access, or hidden subsidies like their increased impact on global warming because of all their driving.

It's better for the planet and better for people to live in urban areas, and the only reason that rural areas are cheaper is that they don't have to deal with the shortage of housing caused by urban zoning restrictions.

We all suffer from long time urban homeowners who won't allow increased density so that they can leach off everyone else's economic productivity. It's time for permissive nationwide by-right zoning standards.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#365

Post by ImprobableTruth » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #268

ethanwillis wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get the perk of more flexibility because they're providing a service to society, raising children for the next generation. You don't get this perk because you didn't have children. Your contribution is more work because you have more time to do it.

This argument is made again and again in this thread, and it never got addressed. 1. There are already functional mechanisms for contribution. A single, childless person is already contributing more through their taxes. The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing. 2. Child-rearing is given an arbitrary pass that other equally charitable actions wouldn't get. A single, childless person couldn't let his com…

>The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing

That 'heavy subsidy' doesn't even begin to cover the economical costs, let alone the crazy amount of work.

>I'm not sure if "children are our future" is our future. This model might not be viable forever as the world population keeps growing. This is a whole other can of worms.

What's the alternative? Hoping that the children of other countries will just work for your retirement out of the goodness of their heart? Well, maybe you're rich and invested in foreign markets so this isn't a worry for you, but for the vast majority of people this isn't an option.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#366

Post by throwaway5792 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

jartelt wrote: post #252

softwaredoug wrote: post #18

It's simply depressing how parent/kid-hostile society has become... I'm not saying we need explosive population growth. But I feel one of the main purposes of society is raising and protecting children. If you're a human-future-optimist, you want some kind of generation that's better than us to continue on.... I'm not saying you NEED to have kids, but I feel it's part of society's collective duty to consider the next…

It is not necessarily just hostility to parents. I see it more as hostility to the HR policies in place at some of the companies. A new parent at facebook gets 4 months leave after the birth and then can take another 10 weeks of family leave. Alternatively, non parent employees at facebook can take 3 days off to cope with stress or else need to take sick days. Otherwise they can take sick days, which probably would b…

What's the solution? Allow non parents to take 10 weeks off for health issues?

What if then a parent has a baby and then has some other health issues. Can they take 20 weeks off? Or would that be unfair because as parents they can take 20 weeks vs 10 for the single person?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#367

Post by mc32 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

YarickR2 wrote: post #254

CydeWeys wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents are making sacrifices which benefit society as a whole. 100%. We need people to have kids (and for it to be financially possible to do so) because kids are literally the future generations of human society, and if no one is having kids then we'll see a very rapid collapse. This is, incidentally, why it pisses me off when people complain that their pets don't get the same kind of accommodations that children…

Pets are optional ? I didn't expect myself to hate this statement so much

Optional for the continuation of society. Like say Elon going to Mars, he could take a pet. Pets provide some good, but they are not essential. Notice in poorer societies pets don’t enjoy the same privileged position they do in wealthy societies.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#368

Post by summitsummit » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

nice opinion, but it's just that

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#369

Post by garden_hermit » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #196

jacquesm wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woodworking is a hobby. Raising kids is a full time job, no time off, no pay, no changing jobs.

What if "woodworking" was replaced with "volunteer firefighting"?

If the region is at threat from massive wildfires, yes!

Just the same, if there is an national pandemic that has upended all traditional childcare options, then maybe give some slack to the parents

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#370

Post by mjangle1985 » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #298

kevstev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

IMO the real broken part of this system is that people are not getting legally-protected personal time. A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person who has no children is not as easily excused to do what they want to do, because it is deemed low priority compared to children. We need to be prioritizing peo…

>It's when people are working till 11pm and someone says "I need to leave at 6 to make food for my kids" that the resentment happens. If everyone got off at 6, there wouldn't be any resentment.

What would you propose then? The parents starve their children? What an absurd thing to have resentment over. Do you believe the parents don't feel guilt over having to duck out early while others without children continue to work? I know when I have to do it I do.

It's a pretty terrible place to be stuck between letting your kids down and letting your coworkers down.

What an awful thing to build resentment over.