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PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

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Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RoW thinks Portland is borderline civil war anyway. Only a true American could conceive of hundreds of masked, rifle-bearing men marching around and clashing with other groups as a protest.

Sure, but this seems like something where the Americans have it right. Despite all the guns, Portland doesn't seem any more violent right now than, say, Paris during the yellow vest protests.

which was violent, to be fair.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major changes sometimes involve civil war, not usually . Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w

> Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones. Countries that are already mostly democratic don't need violent rebellions?

Even the glorious revolution of 1688 wasn't as bloodless as many people think and still has repercussions today in NI

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#173
post #50
post #21

A few facts about these events: - Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org - A lot of journalists left state media. Replacements were brought from Russia's state's propa…

> Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org Whatever country you're in, this is a good time to think about becoming a poll watcher. The exact arrangements vary but electi…

Didn't seem to have helped much in Belarus. OSCE/ODIHR were present since 2001 (at least), noted some things, and here we are:

https://www.statista.com/chart/22512/belarus-presidential-el...

Then they were absent this year, and the official result was the exact same 80%.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#174

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to we…

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Phil…

The carnation revolution Portugal was not violent have you got those revolutions switched

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is important to understand who the poll watchers are and what their motives are. In the U.S. in the 1980's poll watching was used as a cover for voter intimidation when white males in combat boots and 10 gallon cowboy hats and even some with guns, many off-duty police officers, were recruited and sent to African American and Latino communities to stand near polling places with signs saying they are patrolling the…

What you are saying is true. But it is irrelevant in Belarus. See picture above representing a typical independent observer in Belarus.

Oh definitely. I wasn't trying to imply this is the situation in Belarus and I apologize if it came off that way, just that poll watching (like most things) can be used for both good and for evil, so it important to make sure there are safeguards in place for the latter.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#176
I'm sure there's a couple people reading about this and other events in Belarus and wondering why Russia is so involved with Belarus like this. I thought I'd add a little bit on context. Like Ukraine, Belarus serves as a buffer between NATO and Russia, and was once a part of the Soviet Union. But Belarus is especially important to Russia because of Kaliningrad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad . It's a part of Russia that is completely separate from the rest of the country, on the Baltic Sea wedged between Poland and Lithuania. Kaliningrad is heavily militarized, and in any NATO-Russian conflict Kaliningrad would play a vital role. And the country of Belarus is directly between Kaliningrad and the rest of Russia. Any Russian war plan would hinge on being able to move troops through Belarus. I would expect Russia to pull out all the stops to defend their interests here

EDIT: sorry, Belarus does not directly connect to Kaliningrad, there is a gap of about 50 miles with Lithuania and Poland on either side. But the general point still stands

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#177

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to we…

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Phil…

The fall of the( USA supported) fascist regime in Greece was not in fact bloodless.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Phil…

The carnation revolution Portugal was not violent have you got those revolutions switched

AFAIK it didn't have any death but it was sparked by a military coup d'état by lower rank officials. Later on the people on the streets supported the officials and demanded democracy.

So, when guys with guns depose a dictator it gets a little harder to argue that it is very peaceful.

However I thank you for bring up the fact that there was no blood.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Phil…

The fall of the( USA supported) fascist regime in Greece was not in fact bloodless.

And ?...

Again and again: my point is that the democratic forces opposing the dictatorship didn't engage in violence.

The violence in the crisis that led to the collapse of the dictatorship of Colonels was by the dictatorship itself and the war against Turkey.

All repressive regimes repress. My point is how the democrats should respond.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are crypto voting systems that do not allow anyone (including the government) to know if you voted or what your vote is (identifying you), but still allows tallying and validation. Are they safe against "rubber hose cryptanalysis"? Such as forcing you to verify your vote while I can see you?

I’m not an expert, but couldn’t you keep a link between your public key and your vote while the election is open. Allow subsequent votes that will nullify votes associated with your public key. And when the polls close, this link gets deleted. This way you can be intimidated to vote and verify a certain way, then after your intimidator leaves you alone, you simply cast another vote. And after the deadline passes any…

There's still the problem that you can still coerce and verify then use surveillance and the fear of surveillance to keep people from changing their vote. Random rechecks the day the polls close would keep a lot of people from risking changing their vote after the initial check-in.

Even beyond any theoretical security measures one huge benefit of in person voting is it limits the available attack. With IPV to steal an election you have to find a way to either physically bring enough people to enough polling places to swing the election or corrupt the poll watcher system and steal it in the counting phase. With electronic voting anyone in the world has a chance to attack you. Anything that requires Joe/Jane Citizen to reliably or securely operate their computer is kind of doomed for a long time IMO.

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