FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices • Hacker News Board

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#71

Post by scott_s » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:19 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #50

God I hope this suit is successful. Lots of people here are discussing the regulatory trap they've got, and that's a big problem. But the actual problem mentioned in the suit is deceptive marketing. TurboTax is the worst in this regard. Last year, I, at every step of the process, declined the expensive options that say "maybe you'll save more money if you permanently switch into this paid mode". Yet after a couple ho…

> Their UI is very nice though, especially for guiding people through a process that they almost intrinsically hate.

Which is evidence towards the idea that if they wanted to make choosing the free or paid versions easy and obvious which was best for each person, they could.

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#72

Post by supernova87a » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:19 PM UTC

Why are we bothering with the small potatoes in the room (TurboTax not putting URLs to free tax filing, etc. etc) when the elephant is:

"Why isn't the IRS giving people a way to prepopulate and file taxes for free with the financial info that the IRS already has on everyone?"

Well, I suppose it's just a product of the corporate interests and congressional deadlock that prevents us from doing a multitude of things right now. Other countries manage to do this just fine.

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#73

Post by scott_s » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

guerby wrote: post #21

In France you can fill your tax form online since 1999 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A9l%C3%A9d%C3%A9claration... In the past years banks and companies give tax related information to the tax authority so for lots of people the online tax form is already 100% filled and correct. For the past year tax filling I just had to add to the web form renting income, tax deducible donations, and that was it.

The IRS is not allowed to do this, by law. Intuit lobbied for that law, which made Intuit (and others?) offer a free version. Of course, Intuit goes to great lengths to guide people away from that free version.

edit: save_ferris linked to an excellent story below: https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#74

Post by vonmoltke » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #60

syshum wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree, to bad all you will get in response to your comment is how it is evil companies that prevent the noble and universally good government from helping the people. Unfortunately very few people seem to understand that government, intrinsically, is inefficient and bad at everything it does. This can not be avoided or changed it is the natural state of a monopoly. They seem to be able to recognize that when a…

My argument is that Tax calculation should NOT be so complex that we need any entity (Govt or Private) to actually run it. Why don't we simplify the tax ssytem like other developed countries instead ? E.g. I worked in Hong Kong for aabout 2 years and for my taxes, the Govt. already calculated everything and I just had to check some boxes. Why cannot we do that here in the United States ? And Yes, I am aware of things…

The problem with the US tax code itself is legislation and corruption via tax policy. Enactment of tax credits and penalties is one of the few areas Congress constitutionally has almost unfettered authority. It's much easier to encourage or discourage a behavior that way than to pass conventional legislation and risk not being able to use the Get Out of Constitution Free(tm) card (aka, the Commerce Clause).

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#75

Post by scott_s » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #72

Why are we bothering with the small potatoes in the room (TurboTax not putting URLs to free tax filing, etc. etc) when the elephant is: "Why isn't the IRS giving people a way to prepopulate and file taxes for free with the financial info that the IRS already has on everyone?" Well, I suppose it's just a product of the corporate interests and congressional deadlock that prevents us from doing a multitude of things rig…

Because we know the answer: the IRS is prevented from doing that by law. Lobbied by Intuit. If you google around, you can find stories on it.

edit: save_ferris linked to an excellent story below: https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#76

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:23 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #45

Macha wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same idea here in Ireland. Reasons you might need to interact with the income tax system here: 1. You have significant (>€5000) non-employment income. 2. You worked for less than 12 months and are claiming your tax refund. 3. You disagree with the government assessed tax reciept (which is based on what your employer fills in). For 90% of people then, they don't need to interact with it. Their employer reports their i…

> Their employer reports their income, deducts an appropriate amount of taxes, and sends it to the government. How does your employer know what "the appropriate amount of taxes" is? In the US I have always had trouble setting this to where I'm not at least 5% off in one direction or the other, and I know more than my employer about what my withholding rate should be.

If your outside income is predictable and you prefer to do smooth withholding, you should be able to get quite close with W-4 excess withholding instructions.

I just try to make sure I hit the safe harbor withholding amounts every year (100% or 110% of last year's tax liability, depending on income level) and then otherwise just minimize withholdings.

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#77

Post by ourmandave » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

owenmarshall wrote: post #56

ourmandave wrote: post #47

Ironically, for most people the IRS has a copy of most your forms (W2, 1099s, etc.) already and can do your taxes for you if you want.

I work and live in different states, but those states have a reciprocal agreement: any local taxes I pay to my employer's state are a credit for my home state income taxes. Last year a Turbotax glitch (combined with my inattentiveness!) accidentally marked my local taxes as belonging to my home state – this made it appear like I paid significantly too much for local taxes. I filed and happily but surprisingly expecte…

I moved from IL to IA one year and had to file both states.

I did it by hand and screwed up the IA one somehow. =(

They eventually sent me the corrected form and a refund I was actually due.

It was like drawing the Monopoly card "Bank error in your favor. Collect $200."

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#78

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:25 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #66

arvindch wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not set by the employee, rather the employer looks at expected income for the year and withholds accordingly. At the end of the financial year, the Tax dept. does a final calculation and if the amount was too high/low, they send you a notice. Tax deduction at source is a common concept in a lot of countries, incl. dissimilar ones like India and the NL, where I have both worked. Super convenient and frictionless…

> It's not set by the employee, rather the employer looks at expected income for the year and withholds accordingly. At the end of the financial year, the Tax dept. does a final calculation and if the amount was too high/low, they send you a notice. That's my question, how does an employer or taxing authority know what that amount is? My employer doesn't know my withholding status until I tell them via a W-4, and tha…

> The IRS doesn't know my withholding status until I tell them via a W-4,

You don't send the W-4 into the IRS; you give it to your payroll department.

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#79

Post by scott_s » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #23

toomuchtodo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because some people are irrationally biased against government providing services or collecting taxes in general. These are ingrained belief systems being challenged.

Ridiculous thing to say. I am a small government person, and I believe taxation is theft. However, I am a realist and so I recognize that taxes are part of our reality. I am 100% in favor of the IRS making it as easy as possible for people to do their taxes, because they already have 99% of the info needed.

You may think it's a ridiculous thing to say, and I also think it's a ridiculous thing to say. But Grover Norquist uses this exact line of reasoning when arguing against the IRS pre-populating taxes - and Grover Norquist has enormous influence on what policy positions many Republicans take regarding taxes.

edit: transcript from an NPR interview where Norquist takes this position: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/521132960

Re: FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices

#80

Post by save_ferris » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

ultrarunner wrote: post #57

save_ferris wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately very few people seem to understand that government, intrinsically, is inefficient and bad at everything it does. This is a laughably false statement. It's easy to find stories of government projects that came in ahead of schedule and under budget, but you have to look for them because those stories don't get nearly as much attention as the inverse. Take the Hoover Dam, for example. That was one of the…

I'm not here to argue that "everything the government does is bad" because I think it's a very nuanced situation. That said, I feel like the Hoover Dam needs to be mentioned in the same breath as Hoovervilles, and as a precursor to the Great Depression. Arguably, this high-level decision making is the only part that the government did , and should receive credit for, as the Six Companies consortium actually executed…

> Arguably, this high-level decision making is the only part that the government did, and should receive credit for, as the Six Companies consortium actually executed the construction.

I agree with this, but couldn't it also be applied inversely? If a government project experiences cost overruns due to a private contractor poorly estimating the project, shouldn't blame also be placed on said contractor? Success is so often privatized and failure socialized.