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Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

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141–150 of 218 posts

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#141
The story is clearly more complicated than, "supplement Vitamin D, improve everything that low-Vitamin-D is correlated with". Getting real sun, & doing the whole stack of things associated with that – being active, seeing nature, joint activities with friends outside the home, etc – is more likely to help with the correlated conditions.

But I can also think of reasons why these RCTs don't quite close-the-book on Vitamin-D as much as this author suggests. Looking more-closely at the 'VALID' 25,000-subject RCT that's highlighted:

* the dose of 2000IU is still small compared to the recommendation of other groups, such as the UCSD/Creighton group that highlighted a massive calculation error in the original RDA determination, that suggests the RDA should be 7000IU (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150317122458.h...)

* by only enrolling people over 50yo/55yo, the possibility that Vitamin D levels earlier-in-life are important isn't tested

* by eliminating people with any history of cancer/cardiovascular disease, the potential that Vitamin D helps specifically among people whose risk is so high these diseases turn up by their 40s can't be detected. (I'm assuming the 'history' screened for was just the patient themself; if they also screened out family history, that'd be an even bigger limitation.)

* a ~5y followup can't detect effects at 10y or beyond

* Vitamin D's effects are somewhat like, & linked-to, hormones - and indeed there's some indication it should be taken in the AM, rather than before bed, to avoid mild sleep disruption. I don't see any indication as to when the VITAL study participants were coached to take their calendar-packs. Similarly, natural Vitamin D levels vary seasonally. What if unnatural timing (within the day or the year) changes the mix of effects that more natural pulsing would achieve?

Also, the VITAL study did observe "a possible vitamin D–associated benefit with regard to the incidence of cancer among black participants".

So: a great study, in many respects, but still leaves untested lots of plausible ways Vitamin-D supplementation could theoretically help - in higher doses, the younger, the already-sick, during a respiratory pandemic, etc.

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#142
post #92

This seems like it might be a little selective. What about these [1] [2] randomised controlled trials that show vitamin D supplementation has an effect on IBS symptoms? Or this [3] double-blinded trial showing supplementation improved sleep quality in people with sleep disorders? Or this [4] one showing improvements in depressive symptoms in overweight and obese subjects? The study cited in TFA is large but only uses…

It's interesting that you mention Vitamin C! Do you know many people who take Vitamin C supplements? Did you know that Vitamin C had its own supplementation hype cycle in the 70s and 80s? It's out of fashion now, mostly because people understand now that it's not a miracle drug. I suspect the same thing will happen with Vitamin D.

TFA isn't saying that you don't need vitamin D, or that it can't be used to treat Ricketts or osteomalacia (which, like scurvy, are relatively rare conditions). It's simply saying that widespread supplementation on people who have normal levels or minor deficiencies isn't supported by the evidence.

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#143
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you get D3 from a store? Prescriptions are usually vitamin D2. 20,000 IU or 50,000 IU D3 1x/week is a great amount. Or you could try taking a lesser/proportional amount each day. You could also get one of those sun/S.A.D. lamps or red light devices to increase topically.

Just checked the box again and it says "cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) 100,000 IU". I believe the prescription is required due to the dosage (100,000 IUs is pretty high). I could definitely get some D3 from the store, but I am curious if taking a prescription dosage once a month yields the same result as a lower daily dose.

Once a month is too infrequent, but it'll work fine. 1x/week is better. 1x/day is best. Some benefits are missing versus daily dosing, but the main things are still in play.

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#144
post #25

The most obvious evidence to me has always been that Europeans are not black. A change like the loss of melanin requires selective pressure, which in this case was likely furnished by less vitamin D as we migrated away from the equator. The pressure must have been significant since being white carries a big downside: higher vulnerability to sunburn and skin cancer. When I lived in Cali I always envied my darker skinn…

> A change like the loss of melanin requires selective pressure

It does? What about genetic drift, random mutations, and artificial selection, where humans select based on qualities not necessarily conducive to survival?

There is also some evidence that this change in skin color was only widespread as recently as 8,000 years ago [1].

> which in this case was likely furnished by less vitamin D

How likely?

> The pressure must have been significant since being white carries a big downside: : higher vulnerability to sunburn and skin cancer.

Unless you are trying to hide from predators or your prey in snow? As far as skin cancer, as long as it doesn't kill you before you breed, it's not going to have a big impact on natural selection, right?

[1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/heres-how-european...

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#145

Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see the study including K2 MK-7 and magnesium with D3. The 3 work together and can not support all of the metabolic functions on their own in a silo. There are also enzymes and co-enzymes that are part of the picture and I did not see any mention of them. Is there a more detailed version of the study? Again, could be me, I may have overlooked a link.

K2 and magnesium above the RDA aren't needed with smaller (less than or equal to 5,000 IU/day) amounts of D3.

They do work much better when all are taken together.

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#146
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! Can you quote the part of the study where they say the results are not statistically signifcant when you control for diabetes and hypertension?

Here is what the article states: "Therefore, a multivariate logistic regression analysis was performed to adjust the model by possible confounding variables such as hypertension and type 2 diabetes mellitus for the probability of the admission to the Intensive Care Unit in patients with Calcifediol treatment vs Without Calcifediol treatment (odds ratio: 0.03 (95%CI: 0.003-0.25) (Table 3). The dependent variable consi…

The only reason that p value is a bit high in that second multivariate analysis is because of the uncertainty of how much all the different risk factors like hypertension, T2DM, age >= 60 etc. affect ICU admission numbers.

But even with those variables controlled, the 95% confidence interval is 0.003-0.25, which at worst is a 4-fold reduction in ICU risk.

We should also note that the Calcifediol treatment group had 14 patients ≥ 60 years old, and the non-Calcifediol group had 5. So the study looks even better with that in mind...

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#147
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RDA is 400 IU. It's actually the food RDA, with 20% expected from food. Overall RDA (sun + food) is 2000 IU. Therapeutic vitamin doses are 10x the RDA. 6x is elevated while doing "nothing" and 20x is full saturation ("but why"). 2x and 4x for minerals. For vitamin D, that would then be 20,000 IU or roughly 300 IU/kg/day. No need to take that much or be outside the 40-60 ng/mL range for no reason. On the other hand, m…

This is a thread about an article citing many studies of RCTs showing no such benefit. For that reason, where is your recommendation coming from?

I said no need to take so much.. for no reason.

With advancing age, higher amounts (+ magnesium and K2) mimic/amplify the actions of hGH/IGF-1 pushing back toward youth. More D3 is often needed with age for the same effect.

The combo is also protecting bone and the higher amount of magnesium does countless things: released when the body is ready to unroll inflammation, opposes excess lipid peroxidation, opposes lipofuscin, lengthens telomeres, shifts the calcium:magnesium balance such that less calcium is absorbed into stressed cells, keeps calcium dissolved, decalcifies, vasodilation at skin (improves nutrient flow, slowing aging effects), binds and clears heavy metals as excreted, sensitizes to LH, increases testosterone/progesterone and IGF-1 (directly and indirectly), aids in clearance of estrogens, opposes stress, lowers cortisol and aldosterone, shifting to DHEA and potentially anabolism, improves sleep if taken at night (ZMA for males), etc...

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#149
post #21
post #10

If deficiency is linked to all these maladies then why aren’t we seeing them occur with less frequency in areas that get full sun year round?

Do areas that get full sun year round have people with more vitamin D? Those places have people with darker skin which blocks vitamin D production. Actually, the only reason white people exist in the first place is because of vitamin D, so you would expect vitamin D to have strong positive effects based on this fact alone.

> the only reason white people exist in the first place is because of vitamin D

Is there a study to back up that claim? I haven't seen anything claiming to prove that lighter skin was a definite cause of a need for higher vitamin D levels. In fact, the article would seem to prove this theory wrong. Vitamin D supplementation does not help with much of anything as far as we can tell so far.

Re: Vitamin D, part 3 – The Evidence

#150
post #2

So Vitamin D deficiency is linked to cancer, heart disease, respiratory infection, stroke, diabetes, and death. But taking it as a supplement helps with none of the above. What is a reasonable hypothesis then? That having an active lifestyle that brings you outside in the sun both causes your Vitamin D to go up, and is correlated with better physical health in general?

Correlation confused for causation? Say it isn’t so!

/s #APillForEveryIll

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“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.” H. L. Mencken

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