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PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

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Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#131
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idea how to preserve the ability for people to go to "their" representative under that model?

You're much more likely to get "your" representative in this model. In geography-based districting, you only have a chance to vote for someone who represents your interests if they run in your district. Gerrymandering is often perpetuated under claims that we need to draw districts to group like voters so they can have representation. Example: Black majority districts were drawn to allow for Black representatives, bu…

The problem is there's no way to draw the lines that's fair for everyone (although there are ways to draw the lines that are unfair for some).

At the same time that concentrating a constituency (such as black voters) into a district will make it more likely they get a representative that cares about their needs, it can also be used to reduce the total number of representatives that constituency would get in other instances.

For example, four districts with ~40% black constituents may be redrawn into one district of 85% black constituents and three districts of 25% black constituents, resulting in a representative that should be more responsive to the black constituents in that district. Conversely, four 60% black districts can be redrawn into two 80% and two 40% districts, resulting in likely fewer representatives that would cater to those constituents and their wants. The exact same strategy can be helpful or hurtful based on the specific makeup of the districts in question.

The problem with the proposed system is that you lose local representation, and you lose a level of definition in the views. If I live in the inner city, do I support the green party, or do I support the group that cares about inner city issues? I'm guaranteed me vote counts towards the group I put it towards, but I may be much less likely to find a group/candidates that actually encompass most my views and wants well (even if that candidate might not have been elected).

These systems aren't better or worse than each other, they're just different, and depending on who they are representing, they will do better or worse. It's entirely possible that if we could accurately measure how well people felt their views were represented and their will carried out a change could result in those going up, and a decade from now a change back to the current system could do the same (likely after a continuous drop in those numbers over years), because the groups and people represented are continuously changing and any assumption that a single system will work best in perpetuity is itself flawed.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#132

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to we…

A key point that people often miss is that an armed population is extremely difficult to control even if the oppressor has vastly superior equipment and training. The citizenry has the advantage of living there all the time, of being able to hide in the buildings (their own homes), of overwhelming numbers, and of the fact that short of full genocide the oppressor actually needs some compliance from the oppressed to achieve their objectives.

Logistically, it is an absolute nightmare to invade a city of 25% armed and trained citizens versus invading a city that is 1% armed and trained citizens. Access to drones and missiles and tanks doesn't help nearly as much as many people would believe.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#133
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Yugoslav wars were mostly ethnic conflicts that happened after the collapse of communism, not exactly a democratic revolution. I concede in Romania, but that is an atypical case. The overall case of collapse communism was peacefull: Poland, Hungary, East Germany, Czechozlovakia, Bulgaria, Albania, ...

No, the way to 1989 wasn't all that peaceful. For example there was the martial law and repressions against "Solidarity" during 198x in Poland. And you forgot the 1968. The resolve of the East Europeans in 1989 was pretty clear that if USSR brings in tanks the people will continue to stand up even in the face of the tanks, and it will be 1968 all over the place. The 1968 provided credibility to that. Thus the USSR an…

We're falling into splitting straws on semantics here.

All repressive regimes repress, that's what makes them authoritarian. But a violent and successful reaction by the opposing/democratic forces implying a large number of deaths is actually quite rare. This is my point.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#134
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Phil…

>1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) i'm puzzled to say the least. Aren't the 70s and 80s were the bloody decades of dictatorships there? For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War "The Dirty War (Spanish: Guerra sucia) is the name used by the military junta or civic-military dictatorship of Argentina (Spanish: dictadura cívico-militar de Ar…

> i'm puzzled to say the least. Aren't the 70s and 80s were the bloody decades of dictatorships there? For example:

Yes, but they weren't the cause of the dictatorships' collapses. As I pointed they were actually an argument for their hardening.

By the time those dictatorships fell the guerrillas were mostly exterminated.

Again: my point isn't to deny that repressive regimes repress. It is to point that their collapse wasn't due to a violent reaction but a peaceful one.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#135
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to force all states to go along with it you definitely need an amendment Not necessarily — Congress has vast powers under the Fourteenth Amendment. See the just-published "Abolish the Senate" by lawyer and well-regarded liberal commentator Thomas Geohegan [0]. [0] https://thebaffler.com/salvos/abolish-the-senate-geoghegan

Good luck finding a Supreme Court that would go along with it.

It's been suggested that Congress could protect any given enactment by expressly stripping the Supreme Court and lower courts of jurisdiction to review the enactment's constitutionality — which Congress seemingly has plenary power to do under Article III, section 2, clause 2. [1]

[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/158992/biden-trump-supreme-c...

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#136
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmmm. I just do nazi why this is getting downvoted.

Because the situation is (probably) a lot more nuanced than what you paint it as.

Well, Proud Boys are outsiders specifically entering Portland to cause trouble, further nuance can I guess be found in other hate groups that are coming in from outside Portland to stir the pot even more.

I just watched a video that included press, local cops, proud boys, KKK (labeled as such), and a single BLM protester (being beaten by the proud boy people).

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And potentially making you a liability to unscrupulous dictators is smart? It's either pointless because nobody wants to fake results or you're another obstacle to remove.

In 1990, my brother observed the elections in Croatia that lead to the Yugoslavian war. Western Europe was recruiting young people to defend democracy and human rights across the continent. The bet was to stabilize all countries on the continent. Pro-Serbian regime tried to fraud, but with the help of international observers, they got shutdown, votes have been reorganized when needed, and the sole presence of neutral…

Wow. What a story. Props to your brother. May we all be so bold and impactful.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#138
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Protests in Belarus are way more civilized than recent protests in both Portland and the rest of USA. The difference is stark, shocking, and puzzling.

Do you mean the police in Belarus are acting way more civilized?

Aside from property damage I've seen over 1000:1 ratio of police brutality content to protestor violence content in the US over the last several months. Presumably the ratio is somewhat lower than that, but I imagine it still leans this direction.

As a specific illustration, in just a month police shot like 7 protestors' eyeballs out. The cost of these alone is incalculable.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it as jest because I see he's purposely riling up his base to commit terrorist attacks on his behalf against fellow Americans like that mail bomber Cesar Sayoc. Like his undermining of mail-in voting right now, it's obvious that he's doing it so that when/if he loses, his base will "defend" him as he disputes the legitimacy of the results and rejects a "coup". Am I concerned that he actually would remain…

The problem is that your political opponents say similar things. They're convinced - perhaps wrongly, but as far as I can tell honestly - that anti-Trump politicians are encouraging political violence and will commit more terror attacks in the name of preventing an authoritarian takeover. They point to James Hodgkinson the same way you point to Cesar Sayoc. As someone who's extremely opposed to political violence but…

The differences are obvious and numerous.

  * James Hodgkinson wasn't motivated by a politician's platform or speeches. This is the material difference that makes me wonder if you're asking this in good faith or not. No mainstream politicians suggested violence against standing Republican congressmen. None of Trump's opponents are saying they are going to ignore the results of any election.
  * The politicians Hodgkinson supported immediately condemned his actions in no uncertain terms. There were no half measures. No "both sides" talk.
  * This is one unprompted (see point 1 above) incident compared to dozens of cases of violence or threats motivated directly by Trump & his speeches [0]. Trump supporters specifically have this history of violence.
  * Among right-wingers, this history of violence is not specific to Trump [1], [2].
0 - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-case...

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_right-wing_terrorist_a...

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#United_St...

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck finding a Supreme Court that would go along with it.

It's been suggested that Congress could protect any given enactment by expressly stripping the Supreme Court and lower courts of jurisdiction to review the enactment's constitutionality — which Congress seemingly has plenary power to do under Article III, section 2, clause 2. [1] [1] https://newrepublic.com/article/158992/biden-trump-supreme-c...

This sounds like a precedent that's bad to establish because it cuts both ways.
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