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PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

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Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#81
post #68
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second US civil war only incidentally involves Trump. He happens to be the figurehead right now, but even if that changes we were on the brink before Trump and we will be on the brink after Trump. The underlying cause is a mistake of our founding fathers. Because of the winner-take-all structure of our elections, our political parties are forced to be forkophobic. The fact that we can't have a real Tea Party, to…

Any idea how to preserve the ability for people to go to "their" representative under that model?

I mean, you now have a few more people to go to.

Like, I used to live in Kansas City, Missouri. I used to have exactly one representative I could go to, but his reelection is almost surely guaranteed as long as he wants to keep running. He has run the exact same campaign against the exact same opponent, Jacob Turk, since 2006, besting him by 10-20 points and taking the seat. One of the larger roads across the center of the city is named after Cleaver. With a proportional house I could instead be heard by 8 different folks.

More importantly, in a proportional house my vote can really matter to Cleaver. Maybe he is just a beloved politician and will be the top of the party list no matter what his party is: so maybe his re-election is always guaranteed no matter whether he runs a one-off race against Jacob Turk or not. But he still cares because my vote can be the difference between an extra ally in the House or not. So if I come to him and say “hey I normally vote for your party but we have had a ridiculous heat wave and the scientists are telling us this is our new normal under anthropogenic climate change” he is much more likely to think “oh yeah, I need to care about that because Missouri is being wracked by heat and droughts.”

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine yes, Belarus youth don't seem to align with EU that much. They just want a freaking democratic country. Most favour Russian values over EU ones. source: Current and previous gfs were Belarrusian and we had these discussions a lot (both before and after this whole thing) edit: And both parents of both women voted for lukashenko btw, as well as some of their friends (not saying he won or anything, but it isn't…

I'm still not even sure what Russian values even means.

It's very similar to the American values of the 1950's.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#83

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to we…

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice.

No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite:

1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil)

2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s.

3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Philippines, Pakistan).

4) Nigeria, Spain, Greece

These were achieved through pacific means. The cases of dictatorships that became democracies through violence are very few: Portugal, Romania...

Prior history of violent conflict is precisely what led to dictatorships hardening (leftist guerrilla groups in Argentina, Chile, Brazil and Uruguay, tentative coup in Indonesia, etc.)

Also, violent reaction against dictatorships quite often leads to other dictatorships (e.g.: Nicaragua, Cuba, Iran).

Edit: again, my point is that violent reaction against oppressive regimes is foolish and leads to the opposite of freedom. Violence is the authoritarians' favorite game because it provides them an excuse to do what they do best: brutal repression. You are already loosing when you play their preferred game.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#84
post #50
post #21

A few facts about these events: - Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org - A lot of journalists left state media. Replacements were brought from Russia's state's propa…

> Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org Whatever country you're in, this is a good time to think about becoming a poll watcher. The exact arrangements vary but electi…

there were a lot of people who wanted to observe polls. many of them were arrested for "disrupting voting process", or were pushed all the way out of the polling place. Independent observer had to use a chairs and binoculars to try to see anything. Seriously.

https://gdb.currenttime.tv/180604A0-D026-4424-8214-7E00D4B60...

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine yes, Belarus youth don't seem to align with EU that much. They just want a freaking democratic country. Most favour Russian values over EU ones. source: Current and previous gfs were Belarrusian and we had these discussions a lot (both before and after this whole thing) edit: And both parents of both women voted for lukashenko btw, as well as some of their friends (not saying he won or anything, but it isn't…

Conflicts with what I've heard from Belarusians, but possibly a bias based on where those guys live (here in Ireland). That said, I don't think it really matters what how the average Belarusian sees it. Russia (specifically Putin, and probably many of his generation) sees a democratic revolution as 1989 stuff, and as a weakening of their "buffer." Nothing is ever 100% but I think it's likely that most want Lukashenko…

Yes, in general the ones that left are more pro EU than russia (though the ones that left for Moscow are more pro Russia).

And I agree that EU should put more pressure on the whole subject. I see the eastern countries like Lithuania, Poland and Latvia trying to make waves/raise concerns, but central and western Europe not so much (ask a Portuguese where Belarus is, and he won't know) and are more invested in the BLM issues than what is happening at the EU borders (in Portugal, most don't event know what is going on there when I talk with them.

I wish all the best to the belarussian people, and they have shown to the world their desire but also their alues by their way of correctly and peacefully way to protest and demand change. I hope it is not for nothing.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He openly talks about his autocratic desires to be honest I've seen it as his form of jest, where he's constantly tryin to rile up his opponents. And he can get away with it because he knows his supporters have all the guns (at least amongst civilians). We'll see what the military does and if that institution is solid.

I don't see it as jest because I see he's purposely riling up his base to commit terrorist attacks on his behalf against fellow Americans like that mail bomber Cesar Sayoc. Like his undermining of mail-in voting right now, it's obvious that he's doing it so that when/if he loses, his base will "defend" him as he disputes the legitimacy of the results and rejects a "coup". Am I concerned that he actually would remain…

>because I see he's purposely riling up his base to commit terrorist attacks on his behalf

Both our positions are just presumptions. Only time will tell the facts.

> In a normal world, these would be things everyone agrees are bad.

I never said it was good or bad, but that I think he is aiming for jest.

IMO, which no one actually cares about, a president would be virtuous, rabbinic and self sacrificial... But that would require us to bring athens, israel and the new testament back into the class room.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#87
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly heading for a civil war stoked by the country's president in both cases (one trying to paint his trickster self as a man of law and order, one trying to hold on to power after yet-another mock election). Though the parts of the protests we get to see from Belarus look far more civilized than the pictures coming in from the US.

The second US civil war only incidentally involves Trump. He happens to be the figurehead right now, but even if that changes we were on the brink before Trump and we will be on the brink after Trump. The underlying cause is a mistake of our founding fathers. Because of the winner-take-all structure of our elections, our political parties are forced to be forkophobic. The fact that we can't have a real Tea Party, to…

The states are free to choose their way of allocating their House representatives so long as they are directly elected. I don’t know if Proportional Allocation would count as directly elected, and to force all states to go along with it you definitely need an amendment.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#88
I think that protesters didn't think it through enough. Yes, Lukashenko is an awful guy, but what is the alternative?

Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#89
post #68
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second US civil war only incidentally involves Trump. He happens to be the figurehead right now, but even if that changes we were on the brink before Trump and we will be on the brink after Trump. The underlying cause is a mistake of our founding fathers. Because of the winner-take-all structure of our elections, our political parties are forced to be forkophobic. The fact that we can't have a real Tea Party, to…

Any idea how to preserve the ability for people to go to "their" representative under that model?

You're much more likely to get "your" representative in this model.

In geography-based districting, you only have a chance to vote for someone who represents your interests if they run in your district. Gerrymandering is often perpetuated under claims that we need to draw districts to group like voters so they can have representation.

Example: Black majority districts were drawn to allow for Black representatives, but also are used to concentrate Black votes and remove them from other districts. With no districts Black voters instead could still support black candidates across a state and get representation that way. Even better, with multi-seat districts they can vote for multiple candidates for different reasons, including policy; effectiveness; honesty; faith or lack-of; gender, race, sexual-orientation representation; etc...

Proportional representation allows voters to support representatives regardless of proximity, so even smaller minority groups - including minority viewpoints and parties - can effectively pool votes to get representation. If ~10% of the population is socialist, they'll almost never get a socialist representative with districts, but you could expect ~10% representation with proportional representation.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's annoying when people think you're being hyperbolic or "too political/left/anti-Trump" when you point out how uniquely dangerous Trump is. He openly talks about his autocratic desires frequently and a lot of Americans frankly don't care about an American president being an open self-admitted threat to democracy. We're in a really bad situation when a simple statement like "Presidents shouldn't talk about…

> He openly talks about his autocratic desires to be honest I've seen it as his form of jest, where he's constantly tryin to rile up his opponents. And he can get away with it because he knows his supporters have all the guns (at least amongst civilians). We'll see what the military does and if that institution is solid.

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