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PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

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Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#61

Post by kazagistar »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #24
dandare wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First you must define what you mean by "nations are hostages of their criminal governments". Only very few countries are considered "full democracy", with some other considered "flawed democracy", but the majority can be said are worse or better dictatorships.

Democracy Index compiled by the Economist[0] places 76 countries into the 'democracies' pile, a further 23 into 'hybrid regimes' pile, and the other 68 are autocracies of various types, with Belarus at #150 of 167 on the list. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#/media/File:De...

The economist is a very dubious source for defining "democracy", given their hyperliberal free market ideology that, for example, believes that vast corruption of media for the interests of the wealthy is good and normal. Its a media empire founded in supporting slavery and imerialism, and hasn't changed much.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#62

Post by atlasunshrugged »

This is a bit off topic but since there are likely some people in this thread familiar with the happenings in Belarus, does anyone know what's happening with Vitali Shkliarov? I know he was arrested a while back and his lawyer has made some public statements but I haven't seen much about him recently

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#63

Post by dalbasal »

mola wrote: post #8
zerr wrote: post #7

When we see that nations are hostages of their criminal governments - what real mechanisms are there for helping those nations? e.g. what would be the outcome of targeting specifically Lukashenko, Putin, Kim Jong-un along with their inner circles respectively?

Usually(last 50y) US and EU would initiate sanctions, if it doesn't collide too greatly with their own interests, that would put pressure on respective government by putting their economy in peril. Lately US has stepped down from that role, and openly started diplomatic hostilities towards the EU. EU isn't powerful enough alone, plus they deal with their own economic and social issues which make them not stable enoug…

Trade concerns are not really a huge issue with Belarus. This isn't Russia, or even Iran. Pipelines would be the main issue.

I disagree about why the EU isn't a major player in this. Economically, and even militarily the EU is quite powerful. In terms of political stability, the EU is on par (or perhaps even better, at this particular moment) than the US. Certainly more stable than Russia.

The issue is that the EU does not see itself as a polity, in this sense. I do think it's starting though.

A big problem is that it's hard to be effective. Sanctions rarely work.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#64

Post by kazagistar »

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #58
dalbasal wrote: post #45

This is tangential.. As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people. Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial re…

Ukraine yes, Belarus youth don't seem to align with EU that much. They just want a freaking democratic country. Most favour Russian values over EU ones. source: Current and previous gfs were Belarrusian and we had these discussions a lot (both before and after this whole thing) edit: And both parents of both women voted for lukashenko btw, as well as some of their friends (not saying he won or anything, but it isn't…

I'm still not even sure what Russian values even means.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#65

Post by merpnderp »

pjc50 wrote: post #52
merpnderp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how the US has stepped down from that role: https://www.state.gov/ukraine-and-russia-sanctions/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-belarus-election-usa-sanc... And if you mean "diplomatic hostiles" in that the US is angry at the EU for not cooperating with the sanction process against targeted countries or meeting their military obligations so that they qualify to vote in international politics, then I g…

> military obligations so that they qualify to vote in international politics This is not a real thing. Voting at the UN is not contingent on military power in any way.

Lol, first I didn't say the UN, which is ridiculous. And second if you think the Philippines has as much say in if China takes over the South China Sea as the US has, then you are under a severe misunderstanding of how the world works.

Also it's ridiculous to think the UN has any real say in these things.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#66

Post by 411111111111111 »

pjc50 wrote: post #50
hippich wrote: post #21

A few facts about these events: - Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org - A lot of journalists left state media. Replacements were brought from Russia's state's propa…

> Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org Whatever country you're in, this is a good time to think about becoming a poll watcher. The exact arrangements vary but electi…

And potentially making you a liability to unscrupulous dictators is smart?

It's either pointless because nobody wants to fake results or you're another obstacle to remove.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#67

Post by mensetmanusman »

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice.

If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war.

This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to weapons. (The U.S. couldn’t even control Afghan farmers with guns...)

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#68

Post by cpitman »

crdrost wrote: post #60
formerly_proven wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly heading for a civil war stoked by the country's president in both cases (one trying to paint his trickster self as a man of law and order, one trying to hold on to power after yet-another mock election). Though the parts of the protests we get to see from Belarus look far more civilized than the pictures coming in from the US.

The second US civil war only incidentally involves Trump. He happens to be the figurehead right now, but even if that changes we were on the brink before Trump and we will be on the brink after Trump. The underlying cause is a mistake of our founding fathers. Because of the winner-take-all structure of our elections, our political parties are forced to be forkophobic. The fact that we can't have a real Tea Party, to…

Any idea how to preserve the ability for people to go to "their" representative under that model?

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#69

Post by severino »

wp381640 wrote: post #11
SXX wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was only huge problems with internet for the first few days of protests. Now they only censor specific websites, but internet is more or less working around the country.

Blocking websites thanks to silicon valley network co. Sandvine![0] They were also used to censor the web in Egypt but nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-28/belarusia...

> They were also used to censor the web in Egypt but nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators

Why would they bother? Money from their US taxes is already being used to kill people overseas. I don't think that preventing some Belarusians to use Instagram is worse than that.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#70

Post by nur0n »

qaq wrote: post #49
dalbasal wrote: post #45

This is tangential.. As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people. Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial re…

"Ukrainian civil war" russian propaganda is doing it's job well

Vice made a mind-blowing series on this if anyone wants to see with their own eyes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o7a0FGlPRdt...
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