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Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

thelancet.com

41–50 of 109 posts

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#41
post #3

Tell that to those disappeared by their political competition. To those in Chinese concentration camps for the crime of being Muslim. To those being black bagged in Hong Kong. To those stuck in poverty because they have nothing of value to trade in a capitalistic society.

How about all the slaves working for American prosperity, hidden away in foreign countries? No need to look further than at home for the worst examples to pop up.

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#42
post #2

While reading this, I can't help but to hear Charlie Chaplin's Great Dictator final speech in the background of my mind: "... We want to live by each other’s happiness - not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed h…

> More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. The worst of deeds are done by those who think of themselves and their clan as the kind-gentle ones saving the world from evil [TM].

[citation needed]

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#43
post #2

While reading this, I can't help but to hear Charlie Chaplin's Great Dictator final speech in the background of my mind: "... We want to live by each other’s happiness - not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed h…

> More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. The worst of deeds are done by those who think of themselves and their clan as the kind-gentle ones saving the world from evil [TM].

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S. Lewis

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#44
We help our own, and destroy and torture with great pleasure and no remorse everything else, including animals, whole ecosystems, and other human beings we decide, for some reason or another, are "aliens".

The moment we give another human community a special name is the first step towards abomination.

Being territorial and aggressive towards others is a trait we share with other species, but we are also superpredators and conquerors and will not rest until there is no more "others".

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#45

I think this article is rather unfairly quoting poor Hobbes out of context. Hobbes didn't say humankind was nasty and brutish, he said the life of man would be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" in the absence of a community... Which is not contradicted by the examples in the article!

What Hobbes actually said: > To speak impartially, both sayings are very true; That Man to Man is a kind of God; and that Man to Man is an arrant Wolfe. The first is true, if we compare Citizens amongst themselves; and the second, if we compare Cities. In other words, within a group we often see niceness, and between groups we often see nastiness - both are parts of human nature.

As a reply to a post saying that the quote was taken out of context, providing a second quote not related to the first quote is at best unhelpful.

Or did I miss something obvious?

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of that Great Dictator's Speech is the beginning, the "I'm sorry, I don't want to be a dictator" part. We need fewer wannabe-great-dictators in the world, and more successful tribal leaders striving to unite people via voluntary consensus, tolerance and moderation. That's just as true today as it was in the bad old 1930s.

> tribal leaders striving to unite people via voluntary consensus, tolerance and moderation 'Citizen 99234832, we have received reports that suggest you are insufficiently consensual, tolerant and moderate. Please report to camp X101 for voluntary reeducation, or face the consequences.'

Yes, you have noticed that authoritarians sometimes use the veneer of freedom and cooperation to force obedience. Sometimes they just use strongman tactics. It doesn't change the fact that voluntary consensus and tolerance are, in fact good.

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#47
post #44

We help our own, and destroy and torture with great pleasure and no remorse everything else, including animals, whole ecosystems, and other human beings we decide, for some reason or another, are "aliens". The moment we give another human community a special name is the first step towards abomination. Being territorial and aggressive towards others is a trait we share with other species, but we are also superpredator…

> We help our own, and destroy and torture with great pleasure and no remorse everything else...

When you say "we" do you mean you personally partake in all these activities, or do you count yourself as an exception to the rule?

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#48
post #44

We help our own, and destroy and torture with great pleasure and no remorse everything else, including animals, whole ecosystems, and other human beings we decide, for some reason or another, are "aliens". The moment we give another human community a special name is the first step towards abomination. Being territorial and aggressive towards others is a trait we share with other species, but we are also superpredator…

I like to eat chicken, beefs, and porks for no other reason than it's tasty food.

Does that make me a bad person?

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#49

Whenever I read something like this, I wonder if the author ever had children, or even knows anyone with children. I have two. Children ages 2 and 3 are a strong counter-example to this "inmate human goodness" hypothesis and Rousseau's thinking in general. My kids at that age would often be about to trip over the last nerve with some sort of interruption only to say, "Mommy and daddy, I love you." In some ways, I thi…

Humans innately have object persistence too, but you wouldn't be able to tell from interacting with a baby as it takes them a few years to get there. Saying kids don't behave as nice as adults doesn't really mean anything in a similar way.

Re: Humankind neither nasty nor brutish

#50

Whenever I read something like this, I wonder if the author ever had children, or even knows anyone with children. I have two. Children ages 2 and 3 are a strong counter-example to this "inmate human goodness" hypothesis and Rousseau's thinking in general. My kids at that age would often be about to trip over the last nerve with some sort of interruption only to say, "Mommy and daddy, I love you." In some ways, I thi…

I think it really depends on the child whether inherently good or bad from the start. Basically genetics allowing either outcome.
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