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Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

nytimes.com

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Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#21

Post by acruns »

I think they are the enemy of the people and our nation. Neither side can be trusted to deliver unbiased information and instead do their best to invoke feelings of fear, hostility, anger, hatred, but most of all fear in an effort to sell more commercial time/clicks/papers. And a large part of both sides look to their news outlet to confirm their bias and at the same time grow their bias based on the latest injustice/tragedy/incomprehensible outrage, further driving the (two) sides further apart, growing their hatred for the other side, fear that the other side is going to end their way of life, so on.

People still mostly believe what they watch and read, blindly. Especially when it coincides with their own views. And by making up more lies, more exaggerations, or making it seem like we are all going to die if Trump/Biden gets elected as the next God, they are perpetually making things worse with each story.

How hard is it to be honest and unbiased? Isn't that your job anyway?

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#22

Post by amadeuspagel »

specialist wrote: post #4

Ah. The journalists and reporters. Of course. Much concern. Never a mention of the owners, publishers, editors, boards, and personages of influence. Never a mention of the quid pro quo of coverage for access. We should focus all our concern on the journalists. Those dastardly story tellers using their immense power to boss around the mail clerks.

Trump mentions Bezos, the owner of the Washington Post, all the time. But of course journalists themselves also have power. The power to decide what information reaches their readers, how it is presented - that is power. Not bossing around mail clerks.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#23

Post by 082349872349872 »

rosstex wrote: post #8
heartbeats wrote: post #5

I think it's unavoidable. With social media, the incentives simply aren't there to have a media that gives a balanced view of the story anymore. That doesn't sell. Before, it used to be that you'd present side A and side B, without taking any stance. Now, people are starting to conflate neutrality with centrism. Even a 'neutral' news outlet is expected to take some sort of stance, and not to platform extremists. If y…

There are sides to a story, and then there's false information. But on the lines of what you're saying, I think that education should probably train students in that style of media literacy: reading both sides of an issue from neutral, partisan and extremist perspectives, and reasoning about how to synthesize them.

There's even a book on media analysis:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23858477

or, for those who prefer a shorter textbook form:

https://collections.nlm.nih.gov/ext/dw/01130770R/PDF/0113077... (confer analytical outline on ¶ 45, pp 18-20)

Ancient Aliens as pedagogical example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23721423

Bonus clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqoyl2p8_lw

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#24

Post by TeaDrunk »

blhack wrote: post #17

When was the last time you read a news article about a topic where you are an expert, and walked away from it thinking that it would help laymen better understand the topic? Journalism is a bit of a personal frustration of mine. It's so important to the function of our society to have an informed population, but we don't, and it's because of the consistent lying that is done by journalists that we don't. Maybe not so…

Journalists are stuck to doing the whims of owners and advertisers. We don't have a funding model purely for journalism as a mainstream practice. We do have federal funding grants for certain journalistic practices, and that journalism tends to be excellent and also completely ignored, such as focused reporting on the intersection of indigenous nationhood and the USA court system. (If that reporting were more widely known, for example, we wouldn't have had the supreme court of the united states questioning whether or not native people are capable of managing cities or what happens to criminals when discussing whether or not half of Oklahoma is native land. These are well-trod reporting subjects by specialist journalists who are highly knowledgeable in the field.)

Investigative journalism still provides excellent explanations- The New York Times reporting on Clearview AI helped explain effects of the algorithm to a layperson accurately.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#25

Post by throwawayinfo »

heartbeats wrote: post #20
mgkimsal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, you'll have to read two news outlets You already can read multiple outlets for different perspectives. Most people don't. Why would that change?

With the increasing polarization, there will have to be some point. For example, right now, Fox News at least mention negative news relating to the president, and the NY Times at least acknowledge Trump's existence. In the future, I predict the newspapers will be naked propagandists. If they judge that some thing someone says or does is going to be bad for their party, they will just ignore it outright or lie about i…

> In the future, I predict the newspapers will be naked propagandists. If they judge that some thing someone says or does is going to be bad for their party, they will just ignore it outright or lie about it.

You're not getting this. Today this is a great description of the status quo.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#26

Post by amadeuspagel »

sremani wrote: post #13

Now is a wonderful time to read these words of Wisdom of PG https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1278678974500147202 "Journalists used to have a monopoly on the news. This power bred restraint; whatever their private feelings, they avoided overt personal attacks. Now this power and the consequent restraint are both evaporating. Now they're just Twitter users."

Power doesn't breed restraint.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#27

Post by heartbeats »

rosstex wrote: post #8
heartbeats wrote: post #5

I think it's unavoidable. With social media, the incentives simply aren't there to have a media that gives a balanced view of the story anymore. That doesn't sell. Before, it used to be that you'd present side A and side B, without taking any stance. Now, people are starting to conflate neutrality with centrism. Even a 'neutral' news outlet is expected to take some sort of stance, and not to platform extremists. If y…

There are sides to a story, and then there's false information. But on the lines of what you're saying, I think that education should probably train students in that style of media literacy: reading both sides of an issue from neutral, partisan and extremist perspectives, and reasoning about how to synthesize them.

I don't think there's any meaningful distinction between the two. You can take facts which are not wrong and use them to argue any point, no matter how ridiculous. If that's grotesque enough, it's misconduct already, even if you're not technically lying.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#28

Post by specialist »

Luechkt wrote: post #15
specialist wrote: post #4

Ah. The journalists and reporters. Of course. Much concern. Never a mention of the owners, publishers, editors, boards, and personages of influence. Never a mention of the quid pro quo of coverage for access. We should focus all our concern on the journalists. Those dastardly story tellers using their immense power to boss around the mail clerks.

Former journalist here. Spot. On.

Can you recommend primers, explainers, autobiographies, collection of war stories? Something accessible to laypersons like me?

After my own unsuccessful efforts, I started collecting books and articles about lawmaking (legislation). It'd be really great to have similar resources for investigative journalism.

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#29

Post by specialist »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #22
specialist wrote: post #4

Ah. The journalists and reporters. Of course. Much concern. Never a mention of the owners, publishers, editors, boards, and personages of influence. Never a mention of the quid pro quo of coverage for access. We should focus all our concern on the journalists. Those dastardly story tellers using their immense power to boss around the mail clerks.

Trump mentions Bezos, the owner of the Washington Post, all the time. But of course journalists themselves also have power. The power to decide what information reaches their readers, how it is presented - that is power. Not bossing around mail clerks.

Name one investigative report that was published against the wishes of the hierarchy.

Whereas stories like this are innumerable:

Whistleblowers punished for attempting to report unlawful rBGH in milk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Akre#Whistleblower_lawsui...

Re: Journalists aren’t the enemy of the people. But we’re not your friends either

#30

Post by heartbeats »

throwawayinfo wrote: post #25
heartbeats wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the increasing polarization, there will have to be some point. For example, right now, Fox News at least mention negative news relating to the president, and the NY Times at least acknowledge Trump's existence. In the future, I predict the newspapers will be naked propagandists. If they judge that some thing someone says or does is going to be bad for their party, they will just ignore it outright or lie about i…

> In the future, I predict the newspapers will be naked propagandists. If they judge that some thing someone says or does is going to be bad for their party, they will just ignore it outright or lie about it. You're not getting this. Today this is a great description of the status quo.

No, the system has not yet been perfected. CNN and Fox News both did things that were not perfectly politically expedient. We are seeing the beginning of that transformation, though.
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