Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#51

Post by Ensorceled » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:35 AM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #20

To start with, "Senior" and related titles basically mean a person who doesn't need much hand-holding. This might be related to time spent, but often you find there's a lot of variation. People I consider senior software engineers have a can-do-anything vibe about them. They have a wide range of skills in the field, and have that T-shaped experience profile: there's some area they seem to know everything about, and t…

> To start with, "Senior" and related titles basically mean a person who doesn't need much hand-holding.

This is my definition. Can I assign the PROBLEM, "important customer ABC has some kind of weird bug, talk to Nav in Tech Support" and know that problem is now off my plate. They'll usually solve it or come back with a hot fix recommendation. Worse case, they come back with a "we can't figure it out, we need more eyes on this".

The important part is this: the problem is now something I don't need to worry about.

If I need to follow up, they're not a senior developer. They're a junior with skills.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#52

Post by tomalpha » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:44 AM UTC

It's been a while since I worked at Bloomberg, but certainly back then, anyone with 2+ years experience was designated a "Senior" hire.

It was (is?) more about distinguishing fresh grads from other hires, and much less about significant experience or seniority within the tech ("R&D") organisation.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#53

Post by tomalpha » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:48 AM UTC

starfleet_bop wrote: post #23

It seems millennial achievement medals have now become job titles. Two years to become a senior engineer out of college is a joke. You only just know how to work in a general sense in that time frame, domain expertise comes much later. After a University degree, you only really know what page in your textbook to turn to when you recognise a problem. I come from a mechanical engineering background and it probably take…

"Senior" at Bloomberg certainly used to be (when I worked there) a title used to distinguish between [just-graduated] hires and [everyone else]. The cut-off was explicitly two-years out of university. It had very little to do with true real seniority within the R&D tech organisation/hierarchy.

I'd guess at the poster not quite realising this themselves. It certainly used to be the case that the many fresh new graduates we recruited annually took quite some time to learn how much they didn't know.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#54

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:50 AM UTC

starfleet_bop wrote: post #23

It seems millennial achievement medals have now become job titles. Two years to become a senior engineer out of college is a joke. You only just know how to work in a general sense in that time frame, domain expertise comes much later. After a University degree, you only really know what page in your textbook to turn to when you recognise a problem. I come from a mechanical engineering background and it probably take…

Honestly I've got ten years of experience by now but I have no clue what "level" of seniority I would be at, because I've never worked at a company that had "levels"; you had roles like front/back-end developer, maybe architect, but not really any formal gradations in between. Pay differences maybe, and skill levels, but those were never formalized.

Is there an online test or something where you can "gauge" what tier you'd end up in a bigger company that has tiers like that? I'm not convinced I'd end up anywhere at the top because I lack things like knowledge about compilers or algorithms, things I just don't need to know in my day job.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#55

Post by onion2k » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:51 AM UTC

starfleet_bop wrote: post #23

It seems millennial achievement medals have now become job titles. Two years to become a senior engineer out of college is a joke. You only just know how to work in a general sense in that time frame, domain expertise comes much later. After a University degree, you only really know what page in your textbook to turn to when you recognise a problem. I come from a mechanical engineering background and it probably take…

I think people forget just how new the web industry is. The web itself has literally only existed since 1992. It's only been commercially viable to charge people for websites since around 1995. Web development in the modern 'building apps that are accessed in a browser' sense has only been done for about 20 years. If you're talking about 'single page apps' that drops to about 10 years.

Someone with 2 years experience in web development has been working in the industry for 10% of the entire time the industry has existed. If they've got a 3 year degree and a few years building things before that as a kid, they might have been making web stuff for 50% of the time anyone in the industry has been working in it.

"Time served" as a measure of experience doesn't really work in an industry that's as new as the web, nor does it work in an industry where the barrier to making a website is knowing how to open Notepad.exe.

Really good people could definitely make senior level by the time they've been working professionally for 2 years.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#56

Post by lordnacho » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #28

lordnacho wrote: post #20

To start with, "Senior" and related titles basically mean a person who doesn't need much hand-holding. This might be related to time spent, but often you find there's a lot of variation. People I consider senior software engineers have a can-do-anything vibe about them. They have a wide range of skills in the field, and have that T-shaped experience profile: there's some area they seem to know everything about, and t…

It’s not just knowing how to do a bunch of things. No one can do everything. It’s the attitude and meta-skills that enable picking up the next new thing.

Same thing, isn't it? At the end of the day the guy who can do anything you ask him to is going to do it by learning, not by knowing already.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#57

Post by croon » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:53 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #44

izacus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kinda hard to be one when you've never had to maintain the monstrosity you've built for more than a few months. All the hard lessons are learned 5 years down the line when the wrong decisions really hurt you.

You can maintain other people's monstrosities and quickly learn the lessons. There's a couple of folks at work who joined straight out of college a few years back and ended up with ownership of a terribly-designed production system that everyone else depends on, and they've been doing a solid job of switching it over to a reasonable architecture while it's running. I don't know what title they have but I'd certainly…

I can't make any judgement on the specific case you're describing, but I've seen this general scenario play out a few cycles in my career.

My guess is that they overcorrect on the previous system designers mistakes, because they too have only had that one experience and this is their first time building a new one.

And the cycle repeats in another 5 years when a new group of fresh grads have to take over/rebuild the current new system.

I hate being ageist in any direction, but experience actually do take time, and only older people have been younger, never the reverse. The hard part is recognizing what is unique to a generation and what is commonality.

Or you can tell me I was wrong in 10 years.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#58

Post by slumdev » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 11:55 AM UTC

I live in flyover country, so adjust these numbers for your locale.

There are "seniors" who make $60,000 per year. No joke. And there are seniors who make $140,000 per year (in a rather low cost area.)

The PHBs have figured out that we are vain and can be lured by shiny titles. We shouldn't go out of our way to make it easier on them.

Software engineer is a working class profession. Lusting after title plumage hurts us.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#59

Post by darkerside » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 12:00 PM UTC

aronpye wrote: post #35

geofft wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what this has to do with millennials. Leaving aside that "achievement medals" were generally made for the sake of the parents and not the child, it certainly wasn't millennials who came up with, say, the idea that banks should have thousands of vice presidents. In any case, it is absolutely possible to have significant domain expertise in software engineering two years out of school. When you're seeing re…

No, but millennials sure do demand such titles.

You can generally replace the word millennials with people without changing the accuracy of the statement. Your statement is a good example.

Re: Things I Learned to Become a Senior Software Engineer

#60

Post by darkerside » Mon, Sep 07, 2020, 12:03 PM UTC

There is a shocking amount of ad hominem and focus on the years of experience in this article. Are people actually reading the article? Perhaps surprisingly, it's really fucking good. I'm absolutely planning to share this with junior devs that I work with.

Author may not realize how much more there is to learn than he already knows, but we all kind of have that problem, just at different scales, am I right? He's doing all the right things, learning the right lessons, and is on track to be senior whether he has that title at work or not.