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Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

sciencemag.org

151–160 of 181 posts

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#151

It doesn't really surprise me much that lactase persistence should be so strongly selected for in a relatively short period of time. Cows and other ungulates possess a rather magical ability to turn something that can't be digested by humans (cellulose) into something that can (milk). Opening up the huge caloric and nutrient resource of cellulose to humans in a relatively replenishable way had to be a giant benefit t…

Lactase persistence isn't the only (or even first) way to convert inedible flora into food. For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history. If you absolutely insist on dairy though, the genes for lactase persistence post-date dairying by a few millennia and many people who rely primarily on dairy today still lack the genes, like most Mongolians. They've adapted different productio…

"For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history."

Besides what sibling comments already mentioned, eating the livestock directly meant having to herd larger groups of animals. One hypothesis that comes to mind that explains how lactase persistence might spread so fast was the enabling auto-sufficiency on small family-level herding that helped with survival. The primary target of plagues and war were the large settlements, and I imagine it was very useful to be able to live on small and thus low profile herd that roamed away in the wilderness, far away from the population-limiting events, or at least sitting them out somewhere close by but safe. This is harder to do with large herds, which for one consume the grassing stock faster, require more active movement, and thus confers inferior stealthy means of existence that is so important in face of wars of that time.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#152
post #131
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure, so 400 families can support a population that kills a cow per day, eats some of the meat in the family and sells the rest of the meat.

How much land would those 400 families need to feed their cows? I think most prehistoric settlements were small. Around where I live, perhaps 5-20 houses.

> Fun Fact: the word for "capital" derives from "cattle"

"cheptel" (french) / cattle / capital seem to derive from "caput" / "capita" latin for head(s)

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#153
post #111
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's so powerful, why did it not take over the rest of the world. Time. For going from 1/10 000 000 to 25% of the population in 300 generations (7500 years), you need to have a gene that give you 5% more offsprings at each generation.

And distance. Not so much gene flow across the Mediterranean until we got good at sailing. And climate. Milk was an advantage against other food sources available at the time in northern Europe, but this wasn't necessarily true elsewhere.

Climate also reflects on the level of available grass that the herders had to take into account when deciding where to move. Europe receives smaller quantities of precipitation as one goes from west to east, and then Europe's lush vegetation transitions into steppes and harsher climate beyond Volga region (Europe-Asia border). It must have been a tough call to decide to go eastward, and from what history tells us, that herders chose to migrate westward, not the other way around.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#154

It doesn't really surprise me much that lactase persistence should be so strongly selected for in a relatively short period of time. Cows and other ungulates possess a rather magical ability to turn something that can't be digested by humans (cellulose) into something that can (milk). Opening up the huge caloric and nutrient resource of cellulose to humans in a relatively replenishable way had to be a giant benefit t…

Note that there's still no evidence the ability to digest lactose is an actual adaptation as opposed to some allele that got accidentally fixed in some populations due to genetic drift.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#155
My grandfather's family were all lactose intolerant (missing the mutation). They lived in a mountain area where raising cows was one the main food resource, so dairy product were practically present in almost every meal.

2 generations later I am the only one missing the mutation in my generation, everyone else has it (dozens on cousins). It seems that a combination of 2 parents where 1 has the mutation and 1 is missing it results in most of the children inheriting the mutation. That explains the fast "conversion".

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the actual genetic factors for lactose intolerance are very rare. It probably has more to do with gut flora and consumption. I am slightly intolerant and have symptoms if I stuff myself with raw milk. Other than that it is no problem. I have a friend with the genetic condition and even he drinks milk. He does get problem quickly, but not if he drinks coffee with some milk or yogurt. I think all people develop…

> I think the actual genetic factors for lactose intolerance are very rare. It probably has more to do with gut flora and consumption. Not really, lactose is basically converted straight into glucose by lactase, and if you don't produce lactase the lactose is going to be digested by a variety of bacteria and turned into a whole host of products (some of them usable by the body) but mostly gas. There isn't really a wa…

There is fats in milk, the energy is not exclusively lactose.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#157
post #148
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not denying it but in order for a cow to produce milk, it has to give birth to a calf every year. So you are getting new cows as a byproduct. Today, male calves are usually separated from their mother early and slaughtered for their meat, while females can be used to replenish stock. But if you prefer you can slaughter them later for more meat and less milk.

> Not denying it but in order for a cow to produce milk, it has to give birth to a calf every year. Just once, not every year. The cow have to be pregnant to start making the milk, but if you keep milking the cow, it will keep making the milk. The cow however does not have to have calf every year.

Not true, a cow starts to make milk not when it becomes pregnant, but on delivery. The milk production declines in time and stops completely about the time the cow is pregnant again.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#158

It doesn't really surprise me much that lactase persistence should be so strongly selected for in a relatively short period of time. Cows and other ungulates possess a rather magical ability to turn something that can't be digested by humans (cellulose) into something that can (milk). Opening up the huge caloric and nutrient resource of cellulose to humans in a relatively replenishable way had to be a giant benefit t…

Lactase persistence isn't the only (or even first) way to convert inedible flora into food. For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history. If you absolutely insist on dairy though, the genes for lactase persistence post-date dairying by a few millennia and many people who rely primarily on dairy today still lack the genes, like most Mongolians. They've adapted different productio…

[deleted]

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#159
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lactase persistence isn't the only (or even first) way to convert inedible flora into food. For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history. If you absolutely insist on dairy though, the genes for lactase persistence post-date dairying by a few millennia and many people who rely primarily on dairy today still lack the genes, like most Mongolians. They've adapted different productio…

mongolians are also atypically short for a population with a tradition of dairying, though — those with lactase persistence are among the tallest in the world thanks to the massive caloric surplus reducing environmental selection against height in times of scarcity

I am the tallest by far in my extended family and also the only one without lactase persistence. My father is the tallest in his generation and also the only without lactase persistence. Not statistically significant, but worth mentioning.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest misconceptions of evolution is that it's a slow and gradual process. Under the right conditions it can happen VERY fast.

Very fast. The canonical example is the peppered moth ( Biston betularia ) [1] in the UK changing color from white to black and back to white in the last two hundred years. Coal power plants during the industrial revolution covered the surrounding areas in soot and darkened the white lichen covering those trees, which meant that the white moths were more visible to predators. Once clean air regulations and technologi…

Evolution should be measured in generations, not years. According to Wikipedia, the peppered moth has 1 generation per year; in humans, it's probably like 1 per 20 years. So 50 years moth-time is still 1000 years human-time. Still quite fast though.
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