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Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

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Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#101
post #55
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world record is 2:03. The guy you mentioned may not have been close to the world record, but a 2:40 marathon is 26 back-to-back 6 minute, 10 second miles. That's pretty damned good. Looking at the 2010 results from the NY and Boston Marathons, that's a few minutes shy of the 100th best person. Considering that those are elite races with entrants from around the world, I think his time is pretty damned good in an…

Certainly he's very good, but there's still a huge gulf between him and the best marathon runners. And that's why this ten thousand hours thing is pretty random, yet pretty unfalsifiable. In any specialised activity, the first hundred hours of dedicated practice is good enough to make you better than most people. Keep practicing and you'll be better than 80% of the world. Keep it up for a bunch more time and you'll b…

So for some definition of "expert", it's fair to say that ten thousand hours will make you an expert.

I've just been using Google to find a crisp definition of "expert" that I can cite to one of Ericsson's papers. Some of those are in nonsearchable .PDF documents. The short answer is that the formal scientific literature on acquisition of expertise does not bless anyone who desires the title "expert" with that title, but rather uses objective performance measures to identify persons with statistically reliably superior performance. I'll post this now, and look for more definitions and references, and try to edit this post during the edit time limit if I find something more on-point for you to look up. Ericsson's seminal paper on the issue

http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/athena/course/6/6.055/readings/eric...

has already been linked to by at least two participants in this thread.

From

http://web.me.com/pw70/ACE_lab/Publications_files/2007%20Eri...

we can find this extensive discussion of the definition of expertise:

"Since [Bedard's and Chi's (1992)] review, researchers have become increasingly dissatisfied with studies that define experts by social criteria (e.g., peer nominations), by extended domain experience, or by (high) education. When scientists measured the level of real-world performance of so-called experts they found that many were not reliably better than their less-experienced colleagues. For example, reviews (Ericsson, 2006) have described studies showing that a psychotherapist’s level of education and clinical experience is unrelated to their treatment outcomes. Recent reviews of performance in health-related fields show that extended experience of doctors and nurses (beyond the first couple of years of practice) is not associated with continued improvements, as most people had thought. In fact, performance has frequently been found to decrease without continued training (Choudhry, Fletcher, & Soumerai, 2005; Ericsson 2004).

"There are numerous domains of expertise in which some performers are reproducibly superior to most others engaging in the domain.For example, chess masters, bridge experts, and experts in other games consistently beat less-skilled individuals. More generally, in the arts and the sciences some individuals reliably generate superior products that are selected for presentation in journals, conferences, and competitions. Some individuals are able to perform at a reproducibly higher level in professional domains too. Our framework focuses on understanding the mechanisms that mediate consistently superior performance, and to distinguish this approach from the traditional study of expertise we will refer to it as the expert-performance approach (see Feltovich, Prietula, & Ericsson, 2006, for a description of the historical development of several approaches to the study of expertise using psychological methods)."

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#102
post #93

It's far more reasonable to change this to a challenge to become a scratch golfer or something similar. I don't think Gladwell meant that anyone could become one of the best in the world at anything with 10,000 hours of work. Such a statement is somewhat insulting to those that have devoted their life to their craft. Instead, that with 10,000 hours you could become very good at anything. Enough so that you could be c…

The "challenge" isn't to become a PGA golfer or anything like that. There isn't any predetermined mark of how "good" he needs to become in order to succeed. It's an open-ended experiment into how far 10,000 hours can take you.

Setting one milestone as your "goal" hinders your ability to reach the thousands of other possible milestones.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#103

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

An interesting response. This statement however is demonstrably incorrect: "This guy is wasting his time." Whether or not you believe his hypothesis, you cannot deny that he is not rigorously testing it. And one of two things will be true at the end of his experiment; He'll be playing in the PGA, or he won't. In both cases he has learned a number of valuable things, and he will have advanced the understanding of expe…

And one of two things will be true at the end of his experiment; He'll be playing in the PGA, or he won't. In both cases he has learned a number of valuable things

Though one could argue that "learning an important lesson" isn't enough payoff for six whole years of your life. "Well," he can say, "I spent six years of my life, and fuck-knows-how-many hundred thousand dollars in lost earning potential, and I still didn't get good enough to be anything other than a children's golf instructor at a suburban course in Ohio, but... hey, I learned that I'm actually not all that good at golf."

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#104
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Golf, beyond mental and physical, requires great feel. To be able to know that in 15 mile an hour wind, with your ball half buried by sand, and water in front of the green, how would one hit that shot? There are millions of variations of what you could end up with on the golf course, none that could be figured out in 10,000 hours. " 10,000 hours is a long time, what makes you think it is not enough time to acquire…

I still wouldn't say I have a 'Great Feel'.

How many hours of golf practice do you estimate you have under your belt, out of curiosity?

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#105
post #15

To me there's a sort of a Bayesian logic working against any hypothetical "adult novice puts in 10,000 hours of work and becomes a pro" story, which is that anyone who has the willpower and passion to put in that much work probably has already. If you are so excited about a sport/instrument/game/hobby that you're willing to put 10,000 hours into it starting from scratch, why weren't you working on it before? I recent…

I agree slightly with your point, but I most adults have hundreds hours of time spent doing new activities that they didn't get to do as a child. So if someone "discovers" painting in their 20s or 30s maybe it is feasible to be a great painter 10 years later.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#106
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10,000 hours is an awful lot of golf - 20 hours a week for 10 years. Seems to match up with your estimates pretty well.

Not all hours are equal, it's pretty close to impossible to be as productive while you're tired as when you're well rested. Not to mention that the person you're quoting is not a professional golfer. Tiger is probably closer to 100,000 hours than he is to 10,000...

If you play 50 hours a week you would still need almost 400 years to have played 1,000,000 hours...

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#107
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10,000 hours is an awful lot of golf - 20 hours a week for 10 years. Seems to match up with your estimates pretty well.

Not all hours are equal, it's pretty close to impossible to be as productive while you're tired as when you're well rested. Not to mention that the person you're quoting is not a professional golfer. Tiger is probably closer to 100,000 hours than he is to 10,000...

I'd be shocked if Tiger Woods has spent more than 30-40,000 hours golfing. Do the math.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#108
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting response. This statement however is demonstrably incorrect: "This guy is wasting his time." Whether or not you believe his hypothesis, you cannot deny that he is not rigorously testing it. And one of two things will be true at the end of his experiment; He'll be playing in the PGA, or he won't. In both cases he has learned a number of valuable things, and he will have advanced the understanding of expe…

And one of two things will be true at the end of his experiment; He'll be playing in the PGA, or he won't. In both cases he has learned a number of valuable things Though one could argue that "learning an important lesson" isn't enough payoff for six whole years of your life. "Well," he can say, "I spent six years of my life, and fuck-knows-how-many hundred thousand dollars in lost earning potential, and I still didn…

How is this different from sinking 6 years of your life into a startup? Are the skills you acquire from running a startup more transferable to other businesses, and therefore makes it okay even if you fail and learn that you're not that good at running your own gig?

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#109
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting response. This statement however is demonstrably incorrect: "This guy is wasting his time." Whether or not you believe his hypothesis, you cannot deny that he is not rigorously testing it. And one of two things will be true at the end of his experiment; He'll be playing in the PGA, or he won't. In both cases he has learned a number of valuable things, and he will have advanced the understanding of expe…

And one of two things will be true at the end of his experiment; He'll be playing in the PGA, or he won't. In both cases he has learned a number of valuable things Though one could argue that "learning an important lesson" isn't enough payoff for six whole years of your life. "Well," he can say, "I spent six years of my life, and fuck-knows-how-many hundred thousand dollars in lost earning potential, and I still didn…

Its an interesting argument hugh3, that the learning is insufficient payoff for 6 years of your life, but the cynic in my says the same could be said of going to college and coming out with a masters degree is Celtic Literature of the medieval period. (6 years, little employment in the field, not a Phd so you probably can't get a teaching job, etc etc).

Lets say he does make it into the PGA, and plays for four years and doesn't win a single tournament but finishes in the money in all of them. (note that generally the top 70 or so players all get some money [1]) Depending on his walk through that distribution he has a good shot at making a million dollars over four years ($250K/yr). Which would be the equivalent of having made 100K/yr for 10yrs.

The payment schedule is another area where the PGA differs greatly from other sports which appear to have a much shallower 'money' pool. (I'm familiar with Golf, less so with say Nascar racing or Tennis for example).

The other assumption in your response is this one "but... hey, I learned that I'm actually not all that good at golf." which is at the heart of the whole Expertise/Outliers debate.

The hypothesis is that there is a 'base level' of expertise which anyone can achieve with 10,000 hrs of focused practice. And once you have invested that time the difference between your performance and that of someone who was 'gifted from birth' will normalize out, or more precisely winning or losing becomes more statistical rather than expertise related.

No doubt he's getting some sponsorship money from Nike and others who are betting that he will generate enough publicity like this to put their brand in front of others who are attracted by his story, so earning potential isn't exactly 'wasted' so much as 'different.' It wasn't clear from the original article to me what sort of pay scale he might expect 'working for the man' as it were. So its hard to evaluate the opportunity cost of that path.

So if the hypothesis is correct, and he's rigorous in his training/practice, then he will make back much more than his 'earning potential' over those 6 years. Much like an investor listening to a start-up pitch which will take 6 years to disrupt the market. Give the guy credit for going 'all in'.

[1] http://frankosport.us/golf/Purse/index.html

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#110
post #25

Here's his blog with some updated info: http://dannychampion.com/blog.php His improvement seems to be fairly rapid. I guess if this is your sole pursuit, not that surprising. But nevertheless makes I'm rooting for him. I think it would be testament to the theory.

Being a golf pro requires a lot from the mental side as well. First you need the skills, which you can only acquire through countless ours of practice. But there are so many people with those skills that it's really about who performs best under pressure. So if he fails, it says nothing about the theory. Should he succeed, that's a whole another story and would be pretty exciting.

I've seen animators go from rank beginner to pretty awesome in the hands of John Krickfalusi. And trust me, there are a lot of mental skills involved in animating. As well as a lot of pressure.

How long did this take? About five years.

He bitches now and then that he's the unpaid master class of the Hollywood TV industry. Not everyone (me, for instance) who's done time at Spümcø is working in the animation industry. But everyone who spent much time doing John's directed practice can draw rings around most people with their eyes closed.

The hard part, IMHO, was putting in the time to practice and keep practicing. Even on a shitty day. This guy seems to have that down; he's been able to structure his life so that he doesn't have much to distract him from golf. If he keeps at it and doesn't get run over by a truck, I'm pretty sure he will either become a pro or burn out.

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