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Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

sciencemag.org

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Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#61
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhere between 100 and 100% sure that perception was manufactured by dairy industry marketing. It was a classic bernays strategy, create the perception that everyone is doing it than everyone will do it. The same strategy used to get people to both start and stop smoking 60 years later

that's not a correct point of view. Your theory would be valid, if this didn't happen in other european countries that had no marketing whatsoever or 'evil big milk' industry behind.... Almost all former communist countries, gave lots of milk of children, whenever they could as it was universally considered healthy and nutritional. Also Milk, yogurt and cheese are staples of most Mediterranean diets, since like forev…

Correct. In fact milk consumption is high in many places according to this chart http://chartsbin.com/view/1491

These two claims are not in conflict. Just like saying "People have been smoking for thousands of years and tobacco companies were normalizing nicotine addiction" aren't in conflict. They can both be true.*

Milk advertisement surely isn't the only factor in dairy consumption.

It focused for decades on persuading parents to give it to their children using nutritional claims.

* - Also, I'm not using tobacco to imply a devious or malicious use by the milk industry or that their products are unhealthy. No. The two industries used many of the same marketing consultants in the mid-20th century and so ended up with similar campaigns ... that's really it.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#62

By the time Germans became familiar to the Romans milk consumption was common. The common source of dietary fats for Romans at the time was olive oil. The common source of fats for the Germans was butter which the Romans looked down upon as barbaric.

"All Gaul is divided into three parts: the part that cooks with lard and goose fat, the part that cooks with olive oil, and the part that cooks with butter."

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lactase persistence isn't the only (or even first) way to convert inedible flora into food. For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history. If you absolutely insist on dairy though, the genes for lactase persistence post-date dairying by a few millennia and many people who rely primarily on dairy today still lack the genes, like most Mongolians. They've adapted different productio…

> the way it was done for most of human history Humans were not hunting for most of their history [1] [1] "The human adaptations to meat eating: a reappraisal" Claude Marcel Hladik, Patrick Pasquet https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00545795/document

The paper you're linking does not support the conclusion you're drawing and I'd encourage you to read it more carefully. Modern humans are omnivores, which means their diet included both animal and plant products, though in different proportions at different times and places.

Moreover, the suggestion that humans started eating meat recently is patently ridiculous in the face of the material record. The nicest way I can put this is to strongly recommend spending some time with Wikipedia. A good starting point would be the stone tools page, in particular the section on the Acheulean industry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_tool#Mode_II:_The_Acheul...

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#64
post #30
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For one, you can simply eat the cows It could be more resource intensive to get a new cow each time rather than milk the same cow over and over for a longer period of time.

Milk production is also a continuum of data samples over the life of the animal. Eating the animal is one data sample and you can’t duplicate the animal after collecting the data. Selecting for milk production would be a lot more accurate than selecting for meat tastiness, longevity or even, to an lesser extent, health.

I can't decide whether that first para is satire or not

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#65
Indians (or people present in common day india-pakistan-nepal) were drinking milk before 5500 BC..makes you wonder. And most of that was fermented (cheese (paneer) and yogurt). Makes you wonder if the fermentation made it easier to eat and helped developed the gene.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#66

Indians (or people present in common day india-pakistan-nepal) were drinking milk before 5500 BC..makes you wonder. And most of that was fermented (cheese (paneer) and yogurt). Makes you wonder if the fermentation made it easier to eat and helped developed the gene.

I heard on a documentary that definitely cheese was more digestible than milk, and helped to popularize cheese with populations that couldn't digest milk.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#67

Indians (or people present in common day india-pakistan-nepal) were drinking milk before 5500 BC..makes you wonder. And most of that was fermented (cheese (paneer) and yogurt). Makes you wonder if the fermentation made it easier to eat and helped developed the gene.

Lot Indians are lactose intolerant which is weird if they have been drinking milk for thousands of years.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lactase persistence isn't the only (or even first) way to convert inedible flora into food. For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history. If you absolutely insist on dairy though, the genes for lactase persistence post-date dairying by a few millennia and many people who rely primarily on dairy today still lack the genes, like most Mongolians. They've adapted different productio…

> the way it was done for most of human history Humans were not hunting for most of their history [1] [1] "The human adaptations to meat eating: a reappraisal" Claude Marcel Hladik, Patrick Pasquet https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00545795/document

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150728-chimps-nearly-wiped-...

Chimps not only hunt, they over-hunt:

> The apes have killed and eaten so many red colobus monkeys, the population has fallen by 89% and they are having to find new prey

https://janegoodall.ca/our-stories/10-things-chimpanzees-eat...

Don't believe me and the BBC? How about Jane Goodall?

> One of the earliest and most significant discoveries made by Jane Goodall was that chimpanzees hunt for and eat meat.

Bonobos hunt at the same rate as chimps:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190430091846.h...

And, again, early humans hunted:

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/evidence-f...

> The diet of the earliest hominins was probably somewhat similar to the diet of modern chimpanzees: omnivorous, including large quantities of fruit, leaves, flowers, bark, insects and meat (e.g., Andrews & Martin 1991; Milton 1999; Watts 2008). Tooth morphology and dental microwear studies suggest that the diet of some hominins may have included hard food items such as seeds and nuts, and underground storage organs (USOs) such as roots and tubers (Jolly 1970; Peters & O'Brien 1981; Teaford & Ungar 2000; Luca et al. 2010). By at least 2.6 million years ago, a remarkable expansion in this diet started to occur; some hominins began incorporating meat and marrow from small to very large animals into their diet.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#69
post #41

My favorite theory for the development of lactose tolerance is that drinking fresh milk offers protection from smallpox. As a sanity check, http://books.google.com/books?id=GyE8Qt-kS1kC&pg=PA151&dq=&l... includes an estimate that approximately 10% of children in the 1700s died from smallpox. The first successful smallpox vaccine was made from cows. And the inspiration for the vaccine was the realization that the reas…

Wasn't the theory not that milk provides protection from smallpox, but proximity to cows transmits cowpox, which itself provides protection from small pox?

Then again, in a world where >95% of people are farmers and there's no refrigeration (so milk has to be consumed fast), I'm not sure the difference between handling cows and drinking milk is much of a difference.

Re: Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t drink milk

#70
post #41

My favorite theory for the development of lactose tolerance is that drinking fresh milk offers protection from smallpox. As a sanity check, http://books.google.com/books?id=GyE8Qt-kS1kC&pg=PA151&dq=&l... includes an estimate that approximately 10% of children in the 1700s died from smallpox. The first successful smallpox vaccine was made from cows. And the inspiration for the vaccine was the realization that the reas…

This seems like kind of a tunnel vision outlook from knowing one particular bit of trivia.

Have you heard of bovine tuberculosis?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium_bovis

The reason it comes to mind is not because I've ever been near a farm, but I was just reading a collection of letters by a writer in the late 1940s, who had a small farm on an island. He was dying very slowly of tuberculosis (it seems implied people didn't distinguish between regular TB and bovine) and he mentions wanting to get a cow, but one that's been tested for TB to make sure his son doesn't get sick like him. Because humans can and do catch it from cows.

There's also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis

which you get from unpasteurized milk. Our ancestors had a lot of experiences that are obscure now.

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