Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

reason.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 325 posts

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#261

Post by sneak »

pmoriarty wrote: post #239
Nesco wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his one, in particular, that “antifa is a violent mob that is super hypocritical” For having met many of them during the Gilets Jaunes demonstration in Paris, it’s not only true but an understatement. In addition everyone of them I talked to was of an abysmal intelligence and seemed to come only to destroy. I completely understand police brutality has I have been gassed, beaten and shot with rubber bullets while to…

"I highly suspect that the government used them to destroy any sympathy towards the protests." There have been documented cases of police infiltrating protest groups and encouraging violence, and probably many more that happened but have remained secret (because that's not really what the police ever want to talk about). This history of provocateurs is mostly unknown to the general public, and certainly underapprecia…

I know for a fact that the police in Chicago used plainclothes officers to drag into the street many of their old/junked/rusted/decommissioned police cars; I'd be surprised if many of the vehicles so moved even functioned.

I presume they either set them alight themselves, or made them extremely easy targets for the protests, specifically to bolster their "but they're burning police vehicles!" narrative. The reporting on the matter won't point out that it's a 30 year old police car with a blown engine that was rusting in the ass end of a police storage lot for 10 years prior to being burned.

There are also lots of reports of police dressed in all black and not identified as cops (but wearing earpieces and cop-standard footwear) smashing things, and lots of pallets of bricks suddenly appearing in protest zones.

The whole story is not being, and likely won't ever be, told.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#262

Post by sammorrowdrums »

abduhl wrote: post #227
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That logic isn't correct. Take for counter example Christians, a group of largely self identifying "members of an organisation". It doesn't logically follow that if a self-identifying Christian shoots a lot of people that "Christianity is responsible" either. That lacks nuance, of course groups of individuals that self-identify as part of a group can act as individuals and as a group, and it's often unclear externall…

If you want to draw a parallel to Christianity in this way then we can focus on what the organization does post-crisis. A self identifying Christian who kills people in the name of Christianity is vocally condemned by other self identifying Christians and many would rush to say that they were mentally ill. If BLM wants to not be lumped in with extremists then supporters of Black Lives Matter need to vocally and unequ…

I'm pretty sure lots of BLM supporters condemned Xavier Johnson... It's true that some activists tolerate and accept violence within their cause but that is not universally held, and while issues with police violence do complicate things, I agree with you that violent acts deserve condemnation.

The key problem you highlight with my analogy is not quite correct (although most if not all analogies have some flaws). There are various attempts at organisation and leadership in the Church, but there are also thousands of splits, sub-groups and even violence that has not always been universally condemned (such as in Northern Ireland where I'm from), as well as sanctioned in the Crusades.

An organisation that can have condemned violence while having encouraged crusades, and have members like the IRA does certainly seem like the kind of varied decentralised (or at least multi-centred) organisation that can have internally conflicting beliefs yet frequently be considered as a single entity externally. That was more my point. If you think BLM isn't a broad church, my guess is you don't know that many BLM supporters? My experience has been that a wide range of people support BLM, and most of them do not support murderous rampages, even if they can comprehend why the anger that manifested might have existed in the first place.

My experience in Northern Ireland also makes me extremely cautious about the mistake of retaliatory violence, but anyway. I'm still unconvinced that you could call BLM a singular organisations with all actions done by association attributable directly to it.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#263

Post by kombucha111 »

Fellshard wrote: post #255
kombucha111 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely before?

Maybe you should stop with the blatant disinformation campaign in this post. It's not helpful to people trying to understand the truth.

I'm sorry where is the disinformation campaign?

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#264

Post by krapp »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #248
krapp wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, she describes herself as a "trained Marxist." What she didn't do is describe BLM as Marxist, or its purpose as advancing Marxism. I listened to the entire rest of that video and the only thing that was mentioned in regards to BLM was advocacy for black issues, not Marxism. So no, BLM still isn't Marxist even if its founders are.

"BLM still isn't Marxist even if its founders are." That doesn’t compute. An organization is ultimately inseparable from the real ideological positions and goals of its leadership. The entire 20th century is replete with examples of front groups, secretly working for the extreme positions held by their founders while using rhetoric that the public would view as more middle-of-the-road, and enlisting supporters and lo…

>That doesn’t compute. An organization is ultimately inseparable from the real ideological positions and goals of its leadership.

You're assuming the "real" ideological position of a black Marxist starting a black advocacy movement protesting police violence against black people is actually Marxism, whereas the actual evidence from her own mouth is that the "real" ideological position is the black advocacy.

>Why should we believe that a contemporary organization like BLM cannot be the same?

Occam's Razor. It seems far more likely given the context in which the organization arose that it is what it claims to be, rather than that being a front for something else.

>Those of us who protested the Iraq War in certain street protests that turned out to have been organized by Communist parties for their own shady purposes, have been burnt and we don’t want antiracism protestors to be exploited in the same way.

It's entirely possible that a movement like BLM can be co-opted by another agenda, and that's something people who support the movement need to watch out for. But all that's being presented here as evidence of the actual purpose behind BLM being the advancement of Marxism is speculation and extrapolation.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#265

Post by chippy »

phkahler wrote: post #99
themgt wrote: post #8

This isn't just limited to Portland but is becoming a general aspect of these protests now, e.g. here[1] was DC last night where a Washington Post reporter was hounded out of the protest and then followed by "minders" to prevent his return. Protesters are now blocking media from filming their demonstration, shining lights into a reporter’s face, blocking shots with fans umbrellas and following like “minders” ... “We…

Maybe the press needs drones.

Some of them do (and are registered with the FAA to fly them). However there are a number of no fly zones, some which have recently been added, in addition to not flying them over peoples houses.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#266

Post by amadeuspagel »

sneak wrote: post #257
amadeuspagel wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some buildings and vehicles have burned. And some people have been murdered: https://apnews.com/864cb5c14ba08b4411a16577042d0773

At least one of the deaths mentioned in that URL... was shot by police. Recall also that these protests began because the police in the US have murdered thousands in the last few centuries. Anti-police-violence protests would have to sustain dozens of related deaths every single night for months to even approach the level of depravity exercised by police for years.

> At least one of the deaths mentioned in that URL... was shot by police.

The URL clearly refutes the parent comment that the only damage done by the protestors are vehicles and buildings getting set on fire.

> Recall also that these protests began because the police in the US have murdered thousands in the last few centuries.

> Anti-police-violence protests would have to sustain dozens of related deaths every single night for months to even approach the level of depravity exercised by police for years.

If we're going to police violence in the last few centuries, surely we should also include riots in the last few centuries? I'm pretty certain that more people were murdered by rioters then the police during that time.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#267

Post by abduhl »

sammorrowdrums wrote: post #262
abduhl wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to draw a parallel to Christianity in this way then we can focus on what the organization does post-crisis. A self identifying Christian who kills people in the name of Christianity is vocally condemned by other self identifying Christians and many would rush to say that they were mentally ill. If BLM wants to not be lumped in with extremists then supporters of Black Lives Matter need to vocally and unequ…

I'm pretty sure lots of BLM supporters condemned Xavier Johnson... It's true that some activists tolerate and accept violence within their cause but that is not universally held, and while issues with police violence do complicate things, I agree with you that violent acts deserve condemnation. The key problem you highlight with my analogy is not quite correct (although most if not all analogies have some flaws). The…

We are talking past each other. You are convinced your viewpoint is correct while I am convinced mine is correct. The reality is that we are engaging in an exercise of line drawing. You draw the line for "actions undertaken by an individual attributable to the group" at a different place than I do. I also doubt that your mind can be changed on where the line should be drawn, judging by your retreat to a "you must not know many BLM supporters" argument.

I do know many Black Lives Matter supporters. I also know that many of them no longer support BLM (note that I put BLM, not Black Lives Matter) because the movement has been co-opted by extremists. The second group includes me. While your experience may be distinct and real to you, I urge you to consider the impact that extremists have on the overall movement and how continuing to try to split hairs about who is and who is not a member of BLM while not vocally condemning and ostracizing extremists from what you view as the movement galvanizes not just BLM opponents but also neutral parties who agree with Black Lives Matter. Actions have consequences.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#268

Post by kombucha111 »

Fellshard wrote: post #255
kombucha111 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely before?

Maybe you should stop with the blatant disinformation campaign in this post. It's not helpful to people trying to understand the truth.

One wonders where this disinformation campaign is.....

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#269

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

krapp wrote: post #264
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"BLM still isn't Marxist even if its founders are." That doesn’t compute. An organization is ultimately inseparable from the real ideological positions and goals of its leadership. The entire 20th century is replete with examples of front groups, secretly working for the extreme positions held by their founders while using rhetoric that the public would view as more middle-of-the-road, and enlisting supporters and lo…

>That doesn’t compute. An organization is ultimately inseparable from the real ideological positions and goals of its leadership. You're assuming the "real" ideological position of a black Marxist starting a black advocacy movement protesting police violence against black people is actually Marxism, whereas the actual evidence from her own mouth is that the "real" ideological position is the black advocacy. >Why shou…

> You're assuming the "real" ideological position of a black Marxist starting a black advocacy movement protesting police violence against black people is actually Marxism, whereas the actual evidence from her own mouth is that the "real" ideological position is the black advocacy.

Actually, I’m suspecting that the “real” ideological position of the BLM organization is both an end to police-on-black violence and certain extreme economic-socio-political goals, except that its leadership tries to keep the latter aims covert. After all, even in its overt public platform the BLM organization makes certain demands (like for empowering trans people) that go beyond the matter of police violence against black people. So, you cannot claim that the BLM organization is tightly focused just on antiracism.

Re: 'You're Not Allowed to Film': The Fight to Control Who Reports from Portland

#270

Post by at_a_remove »

zaroth wrote: post #19

The mainstream news reporting on Portland (and other regional rioting) got to the point where they were bald-faced lying about peaceful protests standing in front of burning buildings. The most charitable interpretation I can think of is that these professional journalists think that their readers can’t understand a nuanced world of gray and need everything reduced to black and white. There can be a concept of “BLM”…

People.com had "Bill Murray’s son, Caleb, was arrested at a peaceful Black Lives Matter protest after allegedly throwing a rock through the window of a pickup truck."

So, it is simultaneously peaceful and you have someone chucking rocks through windows (as well as other things, as the article continues).

Post reply on HN