Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#721

Post by pandaman » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 7:26 AM UTC

kilburn wrote: post #717

fault_lines wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling to understand what you're trying to argue, to be honest.

Not the same poster, but I think his point is: Consider a world where society lived by the anarchist principles. In that hypothetical world, most people self-organized in a large group where: - They decided to democratically appoint representatives that flesh out large-scale agreements and called it law - They decided it is necessary to have people dedicated to securing the lands where they live from both internal an…

This is one explanation. The question I have is more of the "what are you going to do when some people will get together and apply concerted violence to you (not dissimilar to the way the government works right now)?". I have not seen a single attempt to answer this in the few hundred comments. It appears most anarchists do not even realize this possibility even exists.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#722

Post by komali2 » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 7:38 AM UTC

RandoHolmes wrote: post #690

komali2 wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A political agenda? We're here discussing politics. The bad faith version of what just happened is "look, slavery just works, ok? Is it cheap labor? Yes. Question answered." To try to wade into this discussion with an absolute refusal to look at a broad picture of small pieces is nonsensical. How can you talk about preventing mass shootings with a simple statement of "yes, obviously laws and police prevent mass shoot…

We went from an article about the philosophy of anarchism to a question of how laws prevent crimes, then onto slavery I guess? I would almost bet your next post will include a comparison to either hitler or nazi's. Either way, I'm certainly done engaging. Not of fan of escalation because you lost the point.

What was even the point of replying? Did you just engage to say "uh, DUH laws do things!" Come on.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#723

Post by truckerbill » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:10 AM UTC

names_are_hard wrote: post #524

mc32 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. Psychopaths are an unsolvable problem. People like them is “why we can’t have nice things”. If it weren’t for psychopaths we would not need passwords or encrypted passwords or security protocols, etc, etc., because everyone would behave in good fashion. But we don’t so we can’t.

I don't think this is true. I highly doubt I'm a psychopath, but in my life I've still done things that required the threat of violence to stop me. For example, a while ago I was ticketed for speeding. I didn't like getting ticketed, so I am now more careful while driving, and while I like to think I was being safe before, I'm honest enough to admit that it's probably better for society that I drive more slowly. And…

What's your motivation for thinking in that way?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#724

Post by stjohnswarts » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:11 AM UTC

_jal wrote: post #244

zozbot234 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are very good at conflict resolution because third-party arbitration is available as a last resort. They aren't nearly as good at it in e.g. the average Third-World country, where fair and impartial courts are not generally available.

Do you think Somalia is like some never-ending Stallone movie? Business still gets done. People work, get paid, buy things without knifing each other. It is true that without recourse to state institutions, there is more non-state-sanctioned violence, which is kind of definitional, but also true in absolute terms. But enormous amounts of daily interaction goes on with humans demonstrating perfectly normal abilities t…

Since there are a few places on the planet where anarchy sort of reigns like in Somalia, I would like to challenge my anarchic brethren to go try those places for even just 3 months and come back and tell me about their adventures.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#725

Post by luckylion » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:12 AM UTC

haroldp wrote: post #635

luckylion wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the same way that we don't see Uber and Lyft shooting each other up But we don't see them shooting each other up because there's the Leviathan with the big guns telling them not to. We do for example, still see plenty of war between drug cartels, even though the wars are extremely unprofitable. Yet if you win one, you get to control much more space and you're suddenly a lot more profitable than before. This argu…

> But we don't see them shooting each other up because there's the Leviathan with the big guns telling them not to. Do you think that 7-11 is itching to shoot up AM/PM? Would you still buy your Slurpies there if they stared? > We do for example, still see plenty of war between drug cartels, even though the wars are extremely unprofitable. Drug cartels are an artifact of the state. There are no drug cartels without dr…

> Do you think that 7-11 is itching to shoot up AM/PM? Would you still buy your Slurpies there if they stared?

Not while it lasted. But generally, that's what happened before the nation states took over the monopoly of violence and enforced it with an iron fist. You may not see two mega companies go at it (they'll form a cartel), but want to set up a new shop next to 7-11? Good luck keeping the flames from spontaneously erupting all the time.

We've had private right enforcement before we've had public rights enforcement, or rather, public rights enforcement evolved from private rights enforcement. You went to your local nobility who had a bunch of men to do the violent enforcement, and they'd settle disputes for you. Still: war.

I'm not convinced it's a good idea to go back to a system that we've abandoned for its many issues, injustice and general inefficiency. Now, if you throw blockchain in there, that's a totally different story, of course! ;)

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#726

Post by stjohnswarts » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

dTal wrote: post #309

sudosysgen wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anarchist argument is distribution of power. Take the example of pollution. Say you're an employee of a fossil fuel cooperative. Is it in your interest to continue polluting? Yes, because you after all own some of the ressources of that company and control it. So what is the anarchist solution? Well, it's in the interests of everyone to stop pollution, right? So you'd need people to come together, decide that pop…

So, the "anarchist solution" to the tragedy of the commons - the avoidance of centralized power - entails a majority of the population banding together and acting as some sort of agent, with the power to set rules and redistribute wealth? I see.

I think that you may be on to something here. It could have limited police powers and perhaps offer up and guarantee, a, I think we'll call it fiat trading systems based on dolloros (we'll call them). Also people can gather in small groups and elect a leader of sorts to travel to the town square and represent them so it won't be so chaotic when making decisions for the group...

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#727

Post by stjohnswarts » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:16 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #353

dTal wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the "anarchist solution" to the tragedy of the commons - the avoidance of centralized power - entails a majority of the population banding together and acting as some sort of agent, with the power to set rules and redistribute wealth? I see.

No the anarchist solution is to remove the need for that pollution at all. Why frack when wind power works? Sure you don't get as much power but when the whole world isn't spending 1/5 of their day driving from home to office to modify spreadsheets, you'll find some power savings.

So they'll be out spending 6-10 hours a day hunting for food in the hills?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#728

Post by akiselev » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:19 AM UTC

natmaka wrote: post #707

graeme wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is that when there isn't those built hierarchies bad/selfish people don't amass power so everyone else can actually handle them on equal terms But how do you stop a bad person from amassing power in an anarchist system? As a simple example, how would you deal with highway robbers? Those were omnipresent in societies before states gained strength.

Governments replaced those robbers, you just cannot escape nor defend yourself :-)

Most people couldn't escape or defend themselve from robbers if they wanted to, let alone vote against them. That's why governments replaced them.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#729

Post by boomboomsubban » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:21 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #711

boomboomsubban wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are just saying that the force is justified. But thats still force to physically prevent someone to have access to those roads. These people aren't members of society. There's no real need to physically restrain them from the road because they don't have easy access to the road. We're not building roads to random strangers houses, and we can refuse their attempt to connect to our road. >It is not that they "can'…

> There's no real need to physically restrain them from the road because they don't have easy access to the road And if they go there anyway? What, are you going to setup a giant wall around society? That's the point. You cant actually stop someone from being in society without using force. > you aren't part of the society, you have no home, and no access to food Sure they could have access to those things. There cou…

>There would absolutely would be many people who would be perfectly fine selling them food or housing, in exchange for goods or labor. Or maybe even charity! That exists.

Really? You think that of a society that everyone together created the rules for, built for their own well being, and that they are voluntary a part of would be full of people willing to throw that all away to help someone who already spit in their face? I think you're wrong. This isn't helping the disadvantaged, this is helping those wishing to exploit you.

Why would the current concept of "charity" exist? It's current use is primarily for the rich to buy PR. If a member of the community is in need, the community will help them, they don't need people who's job it is to sweet talk others out of their money.

>What, are you going to send out "community" embargo squads, that follow people around, find where they live, and find who is hiding the secret tax evaders or something, so that you can enforce your embargo on both of them

We aren't discussing tax evasion, we are discussing people who openly refuse to be part if society. As they have openly done so, everyone in the community will know or will be told.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#730

Post by the_other » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 8:31 AM UTC

djur wrote: post #559

sudosysgen wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as I said, it's possible to transition to anarchy. You don't need to do it in one bit push. The issue is when the underlying code base is so bad that there is nothing else, but we can certainly try incrementalism. In theory, there's no reason you couldn't go towards and anarchic society via a million small reforms, but in practice you get executed for using your already existing rights if you state that your goal…

Is it possible to transition to anarchy in a geopolitical environment of competing nation-states? How would an anarchizing state in the process of gradual self-dismantlement outcompete more centralized states in economic and military terms?

The same ways any small country survives more than a few years.