Live data from Hacker News

Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

scribd.com

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only remote chance I can see DLA Piper taking a troll case like this is if they negotiated some very significant % of the settlement likely to come of this. Thinking that they would not get 50% or 84% of zucks shares - but 50% of $XXXXX millions of dollars is significant regardless. They must have at least enough of a case to make facebook shit cash their way. For all us watchers - it just reinforces the unscrupu…

Unscrupulous? The terms are so outrageous (owning 80% for late penalty) that I can't imagine this would hold, especially when it's in the form of informal emails. I see a lot of unscrupulous business people trying to abuse the one developer who can actually make things happen.

I am in no way defending either party. And, while that contract was made by two naive, business-savvy-lacking individuals about a site that neither had any idea how big it would become - it was clearly a lame contract. But an agreed to, signed and funded contract none-the-less.

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#22

Even if he had 50% at the beginning, wouldn't he be in the exact same situation as Saverin? Diluted to hell by subsequent rounds of investment, and ending up with .1-1%. That'd still be an ENORMOUS amount of money, but there's no way he has a claim on 50% of the currently issued shares.

This is probably why he is claiming 50% of Zuckerberg's shares. Those have been diluted, but he has obviously maintained a huge portion of the company.

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#23
This is a testament to how skilled lawyering can make a difference.

Original complaint: Cast primarily as a claim against Facebook seeking a court declaration and judgment that Ceglia was the 80% owner of FB. Claim founded on a breach of contract. In essence, a claim by an independent contractor that, for breach of a $1K contract, he is entitled to claim half of what a young kid promised to give him forever after relating to the subject matter of that contract. Result: an inherently flaky claim that can readily be ridiculed as opportunistic and defeated on a variety of legal grounds.

Amended complaint: Cast as a series of claims against Mark Zuckerberg only (the sole claim against FB as a company is a technical one that seeks to bind it concerning any judgment declaring that Ceglia has a 50% stake in anything granted or promised to Mr. Zuckerberg). Claim founded on the idea of a general partnership as an association of two or more persons to carry on business as co-owners for profit, with the theme being that one partner misappropriated for his own use and profit assets belonging to the partnership and must now account to the wronged partner for 50% of those assets, both as originally constituted and as enhanced over time. Result: a claim that may or may not be valid, depending on how the evidence eventually plays out, but which is potentially credible if the evidence of a true partnership sticks.

In switching the claim from one primarily against FB as a company to one against Mr. Zuckerberg alone, DLA Piper has put it on much firmer ground and has created possible winning chances for its client. How it will likely play out will no longer be determined by one knock-out punch from FB but, instead, in the trenches, with hand-to-hand fighting over every piece of evidence and every fine legal point. That is a decidedly bad turn for Mr. Zuckerberg.

The case remains problematic at several levels, not the least of which may be statutes of limitations grounds on the new theories (New York lawyers can assess this).

Before we cheer too loudly for Mr. Ceglia, I would note that I have seen many, many situations over the years in which a less-than-attractive "money guy" does indeed exploit founders at the formative stage and the contract here appears to fit within that mode - in essence, a lifetime claim against a founder concerning the subject matter of an engagement in exchange for a token money contribution. Whatever one may think of Mr. Zuckerberg, this is utterly repulsive and will serve as a drag on Mr. Ceglia's case throughout.

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#24
post #18

If they have the actual e-mails, then Zucker will have to pay. It's clear that he gave 50% to Ceglia but never disclosed the success of the site. Cegila for his part must be really naive.

... or really smart for not accepting his $2,000 back and diluting the partnership.

Even if he'd given back the $2k, he'd still have a case if he was coerced with false information, wouldn't he?

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#25
post #23

This is a testament to how skilled lawyering can make a difference. Original complaint: Cast primarily as a claim against Facebook seeking a court declaration and judgment that Ceglia was the 80% owner of FB. Claim founded on a breach of contract. In essence, a claim by an independent contractor that, for breach of a $1K contract, he is entitled to claim half of what a young kid promised to give him forever after rel…

I was thinking about this in the light of our conversations about this (and other suits) over the last year - reading the two complaints side-by-side is quite a study in contrast. The amended complaint seems (to my amateur eyes) to build the case from the ground up rather than the top down, and invite the court's opinion rather than peremptorily demanding its acquiescence.

in essence, a lifetime claim against a founder concerning the subject matter of an engagement in exchange for a token money contribution

Which do you think is worse, from a court's point of view - the long and predatory-seeming delay in filing the suit, or the insultingly low initial 'investment' of only $1-2000? It would sure have a different feel if Ceglia had put up even $10,000, which most people would agree was 'real money.' $1,000 or $2,000 is such a puny sum that MZ can truthfully say it wasn't even enough to buy food for the lifetime of the relationship.

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#26
"I have recently met with a couple of upperclassmen here at Harvard that are planning to launch a site very similar ours. If we don't make a move soon, I think we will lose the advantage if we released before them. I've stalled them for the time being..."

pretty interesting quote from zuckerberg. couldn't this have implications regarding the winklevoss case?

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#27

The emails are pretty remarkable. I never really trusted the Winkelvoss twins, but these direct emails are pretty damning and seem to corroborate the twins' story. Looks like no matter what happens Ceglia is going to be a very rich man.

...unless they're fabricated.

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either that or the slim chance of payoff combined with huge payout made it worth pursuing. If nothing else it means some lawyers get to have their name attached to a litigation suit with Facebook's name on it. Even if they fail they can use it on their resumes. As can the company for seeming willing to tackle big challenges. This is all devil's advocate stuff mind you.

Even if they fail they can use it on their resumes. As can the company for seeming willing to tackle big challenges. DLA Piper is one of the largest and most powerful law firms in the US, and routinely represents clients such as Wall Street securities firms in multi- billion dollar suits. I think you should click the link above and have a look at the existing resume before making such silly remarks...this is not an u…

My comments apply to small and large firms. They especially apply to ambitious law firms and lawyers. I imagine DLA Piper satisfies those. This is about money; DLA Piper isn't doing this out of a sense of justice.

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#29
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only remote chance I can see DLA Piper taking a troll case like this is if they negotiated some very significant % of the settlement likely to come of this. Thinking that they would not get 50% or 84% of zucks shares - but 50% of $XXXXX millions of dollars is significant regardless. They must have at least enough of a case to make facebook shit cash their way. For all us watchers - it just reinforces the unscrupu…

Unscrupulous? The terms are so outrageous (owning 80% for late penalty) that I can't imagine this would hold, especially when it's in the form of informal emails. I see a lot of unscrupulous business people trying to abuse the one developer who can actually make things happen.

There is nothing informal about the following and it does seem unscrupulous:

* You give me $1000 asking me to develop a site for you, in addition to the $1000 you want to split ownership 50/50.

* I agree. We sign a contract. I cash your check and start working.

* I need more money so you send me another $1000 with no strings attached.

* You whine that things are taking longer than expected. Things get a bit heated. Eventually you agree to waive a 30% ownership penalty we had agreed to for slow performance.

* When the site is done, I see it is successful.

* Wishing to cut you out I lie to you and tell you the site is not living up to expectations and offer to mail you your money back.

Certainly whether or not Mr. Zuckerberg did the above is open for debate. Can't we agree that if he did do the above, he wasn't acting honestly?

Re: Ceglia v. Zuckerberg returns, with a bang - biglaw representation, lots of email

#30
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only remote chance I can see DLA Piper taking a troll case like this is if they negotiated some very significant % of the settlement likely to come of this. Thinking that they would not get 50% or 84% of zucks shares - but 50% of $XXXXX millions of dollars is significant regardless. They must have at least enough of a case to make facebook shit cash their way. For all us watchers - it just reinforces the unscrupu…

Unscrupulous? The terms are so outrageous (owning 80% for late penalty) that I can't imagine this would hold, especially when it's in the form of informal emails. I see a lot of unscrupulous business people trying to abuse the one developer who can actually make things happen.

Having courts retroactively redefine contracts based on their fairness weakens contract law greatly. Besides being very subjective, things that start fair often seem unfair in time. For example Microsoft's deal with IBM, or Mosaic's deal with Microsoft. It's better if the rules stay the same, the ball will be played where it lands.
Post reply on HN