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The User Always Loses

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Re: The User Always Loses

#121

Post by scarface74 »

jasode wrote: post #32
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #16

The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns is a feature/bug that determines the course these companies are likely to take. It creates the need to occasionally tade end-user freedoms for opportunities to "capture value". Venture Capital also imports theories of scarcity and under-production that our entire open-source ecosystem…

>The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns [...] VCs are not the root cause. You're not looking hard enough for counterexamples . Examples of software companies that didn't take VC money that many consider to be "user hostile" are: - Intuit -- see 1-star reviews on Amazon of annual Quicken releases and forced upgrades of bugg…

Microsoft Office has become much better and more popular since they started focusing on subscriptions and they don’t have to keep forcing more useless features to convince people to upgrade.

Office 365 is a great deal for $99 - 6 users each with 1TB of storage and I can use it with my iPad, iPhone, Mac, Windows PC etc.

Re: The User Always Loses

#122

Post by 374yruruuru »

bleepblorp wrote: post #88
jasode wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The VC model for funding technology is the root cause of user hostile technology. The pressure of investments that expect high returns [...] VCs are not the root cause. You're not looking hard enough for counterexamples . Examples of software companies that didn't take VC money that many consider to be "user hostile" are: - Intuit -- see 1-star reviews on Amazon of annual Quicken releases and forced upgrades of bugg…

The real problem here is excessive governmental tolerance of monopolies and the lack of an adequate regulatory/legal regime to protect end-users from harms caused by vendor-lock in. All of the companies you mention have near-monopolies in their respective sectors. Hundreds of years of economic history show that monopolies are extremely harmful to their customers. Autodesk is only able to get away with what it does be…

Who exactly is suffering because of Microsoft? Surely not the normal users, Macs are expensive and Linux is garbage outside the tech crowd's needs (a big shock considering who it services). There's plenty of competition in cloud development, office software, and system administration as well. The only losers are European style mom and pop scale businesses but those are relics of a bygone time (probably why Europe likes them). Where's the damage?

Re: The User Always Loses

#123

Post by ohazi »

juped wrote: post #108
ohazi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> laughable "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win" -- Misattributed > horrible user interfaces and is every bit as user-hostile as for-pay software This statement is laughable. A poorly designed UI is not equivalent to a UI filled with dark patterns. I was asserting that free software is a known solution to user-hostile software, not a solution to bad UI. Do you really thin…

The Git UI will probably never be "improved" because it makes sense to people who understand how Git works rather than pasting command lines they found online, and the few real warts like status output telling you to use "git pull", which is a mistake in the workflows most people use, are too old and entrenched. If you look at the discussions on the mailing list, you'll see people care a lot and make thoughtful decis…

I mostly agree with you, but it was just the example that the parent comment used. The same could apply to the GIMP or Inkscape or Blender or FreeCAD or ... (etc.)

Re: The User Always Loses

#124

Post by perl4ever »

bergstromm466 wrote: post #120
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are also tangible disbenefits - like having your home destroyed by climate change, or having your democracy hollowed out, having to live with the risk of bankruptcy if you get ill. These all seem like things wealth protects from, which helps explain why founders and all other humans will tend to want to accumulate it.

> These all seem like things wealth protects from This sounds to me like Silicon Valley solutionism. Getting rich only works for some time in a world with widespread crop failures and the many other effects of global heating. [1] When that happens I'd say it's only a matter of time before the pitchforks and guillotines come out... “I don't believe in charity. I believe in solidarity. Charity is so vertical. It goes f…

>Getting rich only works for some time in a world with widespread crop failures

How are crop failures a major problem if an area doesn't have a substantial amount of subsistence farmers and does have reasonably free trade? How could they threaten a developed economy without crop failures everywhere?

Re: The User Always Loses

#125

Post by SaltyBackendGuy »

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #114
juped wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Git UI will probably never be "improved" because it makes sense to people who understand how Git works rather than pasting command lines they found online, and the few real warts like status output telling you to use "git pull", which is a mistake in the workflows most people use, are too old and entrenched. If you look at the discussions on the mailing list, you'll see people care a lot and make thoughtful decis…

This is empirically false. Git has added commands solely for the purpose of improved usability via git reset and git switch. Neither of these add new capabilities to git and were instead added to provide clarity.

Minor nit. I think you're thinking of git restore not git reset.

Re: The User Always Loses

#126

Post by bleepblorp »

374yruruuru wrote: post #122
bleepblorp wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here is excessive governmental tolerance of monopolies and the lack of an adequate regulatory/legal regime to protect end-users from harms caused by vendor-lock in. All of the companies you mention have near-monopolies in their respective sectors. Hundreds of years of economic history show that monopolies are extremely harmful to their customers. Autodesk is only able to get away with what it does be…

Who exactly is suffering because of Microsoft? Surely not the normal users, Macs are expensive and Linux is garbage outside the tech crowd's needs (a big shock considering who it services). There's plenty of competition in cloud development, office software, and system administration as well. The only losers are European style mom and pop scale businesses but those are relics of a bygone time (probably why Europe lik…

Everyone is overpaying because of Microsoft's monopolies.

Office + Windows + Active Directory + Windows Server is the only viable enterprise-level software stack for white collar office work. There is no real competition in this space and, as a monopoly, Microsoft charges accordingly.

Microsoft's monopoly pricing is passed down to every business' customers and, ultimately, extracts money from all of our pockets.

Re: The User Always Loses

#127

Post by fakedang »

374yruruuru wrote: post #122
bleepblorp wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here is excessive governmental tolerance of monopolies and the lack of an adequate regulatory/legal regime to protect end-users from harms caused by vendor-lock in. All of the companies you mention have near-monopolies in their respective sectors. Hundreds of years of economic history show that monopolies are extremely harmful to their customers. Autodesk is only able to get away with what it does be…

Who exactly is suffering because of Microsoft? Surely not the normal users, Macs are expensive and Linux is garbage outside the tech crowd's needs (a big shock considering who it services). There's plenty of competition in cloud development, office software, and system administration as well. The only losers are European style mom and pop scale businesses but those are relics of a bygone time (probably why Europe lik…

I don't even see how European style mom and pop scale businesses even suffered because of Microsoft. On the contrary, the adoption of Windows is much higher in Europe than it is in the US, understandably so. I doubt there are businesses outside of tech anywhere outside the US based on the MacOS. And because Microsoft took a reaaaally lax attitude towards copyright enforcement, everyone in the old and developing worlds basically pirated Windows, Office, etc to oblivion.

In my books, post the antitrust case against it in 95, Microsoft has been the least monopolistic of the bunch, and a net positive to the rest of the world.

Re: The User Always Loses

#128

Post by danielhua »

eesmith wrote: post #89
danielhua wrote: post #18

"Let’s admit it, we are all in the persuasion business. Technologists build products meant to persuade people to do what we want them to do. We call these people 'users' and even if we don’t say it aloud, we secretly wish every one of them would become fiendishly hooked to whatever we’re making." --"Hooked" (2013) The snappy aphorism off the top of my head is that "only drug dealers and IT call their customers 'users…

While it's a well-known and indeed snappy aphorism, many years after I heard it, I found out that in the mid-20th century, librarians used the term "users" for what they now call "patrons". For examples: from 1952, "A public library user is defined as an individual twelve years of age or over who used either a branch library or bookmobile during the thirty days preceding the interview." (Quoting "Rural reading habits…

Fascinating! I'll update my nomenclature, that's some quality digging.

Re: The User Always Loses

#129

Post by spc476 »

willismichael wrote: post #107
inetknght wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dont you see the bars on the windows and doors? Yup. Captchas are everywhere. Javascript is everywhere. Finding a website that loads without having to enable javascript or go through captcha is a breath of relief. They do exist.

I keep thinking that I would like a search engine that specifically favors minimalist, 90s style personal websites.

Here you go: https://wiby.me/

Oh, and also: https://millionshort.com/

Edit: added second link.

Re: The User Always Loses

#130

Post by a1369209993 »

ohazi wrote: post #123
juped wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Git UI will probably never be "improved" because it makes sense to people who understand how Git works rather than pasting command lines they found online, and the few real warts like status output telling you to use "git pull", which is a mistake in the workflows most people use, are too old and entrenched. If you look at the discussions on the mailing list, you'll see people care a lot and make thoughtful decis…

I mostly agree with you, but it was just the example that the parent comment used. The same could apply to the GIMP or Inkscape or Blender or FreeCAD or ... (etc.)

Well, GIMP breaking ctrl-S is actively user-hostile, but:

> if any of that does turn up, you never lose access to the last-good version and source, in case you or someone else wants to fork it.

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