Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#661

Post by NotSammyHagar » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #604

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

> Any time I've heard anarchists try to explain how they would deal with the subset of people who are just real shitty in various ways, the responses have been either, a) in our utopia, you wouldn't have those problems, because hierarchy causes all of them, or b) increasingly convoluted and implausible-sounding ways to deal with crazy assholes without using force. I see similar bad/evasive arguments from prison aboli…

That feels like a non sequitur argument, we should strive to reduce prison populations without worrying about absolutist. We could drastically reduce the prison population and list of crimes without hurting anything, first thing is stop prosecuting victimless crimes like pot smoking. Release the people convicted of non-violent drug crimes. Release the people who were convicted of stealing 25$ from the quickimart. Give people post prison treatment, get them a starter job. Don't just look to penalize them again.

Just like saying we can't reduce nuclear weapon counts in the us because russia and china are scary and we need them to stop them, we could still drastically reduce the count of them by about 100 without changing that.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#662

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

>This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, "most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them.

As a card carrying -archist, I think it should be pointed out that no -archy can be maintained unless most people behave reasonably most of the time, either.

I'm not sure what my point is, just that most people are reasonable, even government employees.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#663

Post by RandoHolmes » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #574

RandoHolmes wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that you've found even a single one means the laws do, in fact, prevent these things from happening. That's just how logic works.

Okay but at what cost? Perhaps they're creating far more problems than they solve? To take from your argument, freedom comes with risks. If we have to risk the occasional sociopathic murderer and in return not have to worry about being shot by the national guard for the crime of standing on our porch, maybe that's a valid trade off.

You asked a question, I answered it.

I'm not interested in going on a tangent because you had a political agenda behind your question.

The question has been answered.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#664

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:00 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #556

tekkk wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the failing of any devout believers who walk the line between delusion and reality so much, that they become unable to see their own actions from a critical point of view. Those with more grounded views I'd say tend to drift off from the extremity and channel their energy into something else. It's sometimes a shame when the idea these believers, not just anarchists, present might be plausible yet they can't a…

Yes, like decades ago, when the Senior VP of PETA thought all animal testing was wrong, unless of course it was to help her, because who else would fight to stop animal testing? -- https://www.consumerfreedom.com/2004/08/2628-hyperbolic-hypo... PETA Senior Vice President MaryBeth Sweetland on her use of insulin, which was tested on animals: “I’m an insulin-dependent diabetic. Twice a day I take synthetically manufact…

I've never been a member or otherwise supported PETA, and I don't know how much good they accomplish, but I don't think this is a valid criticism.

Similarly, I'm not all that obsessed with stopping climate change, but I don't think there is a substantive criticism when people talk about Al Gore or whoever flying to climate conferences.

The fundamental reason I think purported hypocrisy is irrelevant, is that generally organizations and people who are trying to change the world are not part of a religion that is imposing a standard of personal morality.

There is always going to be human and animal suffering, and there's always going to be something made of hydrocarbons burning somewhere. The goals people have involve reducing the amount.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#665

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:03 PM UTC

pera wrote: post #632

b112 wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, like decades ago, when the Senior VP of PETA thought all animal testing was wrong, unless of course it was to help her, because who else would fight to stop animal testing? -- https://www.consumerfreedom.com/2004/08/2628-hyperbolic-hypo... PETA Senior Vice President MaryBeth Sweetland on her use of insulin, which was tested on animals: “I’m an insulin-dependent diabetic. Twice a day I take synthetically manufact…

I am not sure that I understand your argument here: are you saying a person who is against animal testing shouldn't consume products that were tested on animals during their development? If that's the case I think that would be an unattainable standard of morality. Everything we are as a society and as individuals are in part thanks to our use of animals, and I don't think any PETA member denies this fact. Even if th…

> are you saying a person who is against animal testing shouldn't consume products that were tested on animals during their development?

In 1990 insulin production was derived from animals.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#666

Post by sneak » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

bccdee wrote: post #516

sneak wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s the point of the article. There are better, safer, kinder, and more efficient ways of coercing people (with kindness and strong social ties and obligations and contracts, for example) than using top-down laws. If you believe that the threat of violence isn’t the only way to organize a society’s rules, you’re most of the way there.

Violence isn't necessary 99% of the time, but the fact that it's available that last 1% is why it isn't necessary the other 99%. Some people are absolutely willing to exploit kindness, spurn obligations, and break contracts, if they can. The fact that there exists a system of consequences backed by violence is what makes people follow social rules. Maybe the community's punishment for vandalism is a fine, or some kin…

I’m fairly sure there will remain sufficient coercive threat of human violence to keep society existing and operating well even without a state.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#667

Post by bassrattle » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

Market For Liberty is an audiobook you can find on YouTube that answers this question better than anywhere else I've seen

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#668

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:16 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #534

marricks wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe you've talked to any real anarchists, or at least listened to them. People like Noam Chomsky deal with that question extremely head on. Below is what I said on another comment... > Absolutely no form of government or system (anarchist 1000% included) will solve the problem of people being selfish or bad, all that anarchists contend (that I have seen) is that when there isn't those built hier…

Hmmm, no, it's a false equivocation. What do you do with really bad / evil people who got caught doing evil things (there's enough evidence to put them in prison). I never heard a good answer from an anarchist. You have to realize there are truly evil people out there. People who will assault innocent people, who will torture, who will rape, who will murder, who will do all of the above to a toddler. And will force t…

> What do you do with really bad / evil people who got caught doing evil things (there's enough evidence to put them in prison). I never heard a good answer from an anarchist.

I think most anarchists believe in self defense. So in that sense the really bad people are self-eliminating -- they try to kill and instead they get dead, and then they don't bother anybody anymore.

Obviously this is imperfect, but it doesn't seem dramatically more imperfect than the status quo.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#669

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:18 PM UTC

murgindrag wrote: post #163

Mary-Jane wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tens of thousands of years of human history. Feuding warlords, and slaves, rather than everyone acting together in unity. ummm, both of your specific examples are actually examples of those with power abusing it.

> ummm, both of your specific examples are actually examples of those with power abusing it Precisely. Those are examples of how, unless you place explicit constraints on people's ability to amass power and abuse it, people will amass power and abuse it. The whole history of progress in political systems could be oversimplified as a search for laws, structures, checks, and balances to prevent this from happening. In…

...you had far less theft and violence than before.

Who kept these statistics?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#670

Post by pandaman » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:22 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #517

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

I find it hard to believe you've talked to any real anarchists, or at least listened to them. People like Noam Chomsky deal with that question extremely head on. Below is what I said on another comment... > Absolutely no form of government or system (anarchist 1000% included) will solve the problem of people being selfish or bad, all that anarchists contend (that I have seen) is that when there isn't those built hier…

I figure that you imply, that you are the real anarchist or at least familiar with their way of thinking? I have a question for you then and please disregard if you are not a real anarchist.

How is the current system of any consequence for you to live the anarchy dream? Why can't you just ignore it and do what you wanted to do in the hypothetical anarchy? If I had these beliefs (i.e. the lack of social hierarchy and organized violence to uphold it) I would be very happy as I could immediately live in my ideal society by just ignoring the existing hierarchy and organized violence since all I could do about it in the true anarchy I can do already (i.e. submit to the organized violence or die challenging it).