Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#651

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #534

marricks wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe you've talked to any real anarchists, or at least listened to them. People like Noam Chomsky deal with that question extremely head on. Below is what I said on another comment... > Absolutely no form of government or system (anarchist 1000% included) will solve the problem of people being selfish or bad, all that anarchists contend (that I have seen) is that when there isn't those built hier…

Hmmm, no, it's a false equivocation. What do you do with really bad / evil people who got caught doing evil things (there's enough evidence to put them in prison). I never heard a good answer from an anarchist. You have to realize there are truly evil people out there. People who will assault innocent people, who will torture, who will rape, who will murder, who will do all of the above to a toddler. And will force t…

Since 2001 we've spent $7T killing a million people and turning millions more into refugees. The only result is that the money was spent and the people are dead and in exile. This evil folly didn't make us any safer. The "really evil people" I can think of were the ones who did that. I don't want to live in their society, but what choice have I been given?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#652

Post by mhuffman » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #630

haroldp wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, anarcho-capitalists substantially agree with this collectivist anarchist, but still consider police worthwhile for your edge cases. They just want to voluntarily pay for private policing instead of having a monopoly impose it.

> They just want to voluntarily pay for private policing The idea of private policing being effective and reasonable is subject to the same ridiculous reasoning that anarchists use. At best you'd end up with some completely fucked up cyberpunk dystopian bullshit where corporations are governments in all but name.

... or protection for the rich only.

Which leaves the poor to have to come up with other ways to get protection, which opens the door for a local "strongman", which turns into a type of government, rinse, repeat.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#653

Post by stuartd » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

For me, Proudhon [0] said it best, 180 years ago (did a bit of tidying, e.g. de-capitalization, paragraphing):

> To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so.

> To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished.

> It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored.

> That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.

Edit: and I must include his canonical line, adapted for modern times:

> Whoever lays their hand on me to govern me is a usurper and tyrant, and I declare them my enemy.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon#Anarchi...

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#654

Post by haroldp » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

mhuffman wrote: post #652

TulliusCicero wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They just want to voluntarily pay for private policing The idea of private policing being effective and reasonable is subject to the same ridiculous reasoning that anarchists use. At best you'd end up with some completely fucked up cyberpunk dystopian bullshit where corporations are governments in all but name.

... or protection for the rich only. Which leaves the poor to have to come up with other ways to get protection, which opens the door for a local "strongman", which turns into a type of government, rinse, repeat.

Poor people pay for their policing today, but don't get much for their money.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#655

Post by thomasahle » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

torb-xyz wrote: post #511

thomasahle wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think lots of anarchists are perfectly fine with putting some people in jail. Chomsky usually defines anarchism [1] by saying powers and hierarchies have to justify themselves. Keeping people safe can be a reasonable such justification. The point is just that such powers should never be taken for natural, and always be questioned. If jailing doesn't probably make people safer, then it loses its justification. [1] h…

Anarchists in general are quite negative to the prison system and often believes in alternatives, or at the very least tries to come up with alternatives (hard as that might be). That being said, there are certainly situations where people with anarchism (or anarchism-like) beliefs have essentially jailed people. For example YPG/YPJ forces in Rojava certainly took IS/ISIL forces they won over as prisoners. PS: Never…

> Never ever heard of an anarchist that thinks the US prison system is anywhere near of justifying itself though, but that's probably something all radical leftists agree on.

I don't think you have to even be left of the centre to realize the US jail system had serious flaws and need major reforms.

Just looking at the incarceration rates and the number of reoffences compared to international levels show that something is completely off.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#656

Post by bantunes » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #598

throwaway49872 wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A "community" which makes "communal decisions" is a form of government, not anarchism This is exactly Anarchism. Please learn the basics before posting.

Oh I know basics. It's gibberish, built upon mad fantasy.

On the contrary - mad fantasy is to think humans as they behave today is how they will always behave in the future. Humans used to roam around Africa and forage for food in tribes. Now I can reply to you, from another continent perhaps, by tapping my fingers on a tablet.

To think humans will ever stop dreaming about more equitable systems of organization, and how to implement them, that truly is mad fantasy to me.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#657

Post by yosamino » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

The interesting part is the reverse: If you believe that most humans aren't capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion, why would have a system were these people can be set up into a position of power over other people ?

Which seems contrieved, but ... gestures broadly at everything, everytime, everywhere.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#658

Post by 374yruruuru » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

My issue with passionate anarchists is that I've never heard a compelling argument for why the situation won't develop into a government anyway. Without an uber entity there's all the incentive in the world to form an uber entity.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#659

Post by sneak » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

JacksonGariety wrote: post #492

sneak wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police are the ones who are practically preventing the redistribution of the wealth. Without them, 1/30th of the vacant residential stock in the US would be filled with 100% of the homeless people in the US, for example. (There are approximately 35x as many vacant houses/apartments in the US as there are homeless.)

> The police are the ones who are practically preventing the redistribution of the wealth. Policing prevents, and makes possible, all sorts of things. It is a function of law. By abolishing policing you throw out the baby (the law) with the bathwater (laws that facilitate the concentration of wealth).

Please don't confusing abolishing police with abolishing policing.

Calling a random member of society to do entirely untrained policing in the US would oftentimes result in better outcomes than the current police in the US:

https://lawandcrime.com/crime/outrage-flows-after-prosecutor...

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#660

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #592

sudosysgen wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anarchist argument is distribution of power. Take the example of pollution. Say you're an employee of a fossil fuel cooperative. Is it in your interest to continue polluting? Yes, because you after all own some of the ressources of that company and control it. So what is the anarchist solution? Well, it's in the interests of everyone to stop pollution, right? So you'd need people to come together, decide that pop…

> offer you to be compensated for your investment in fossil fuels in exchange to stop polluting Do you even think about the obvious problems with this approach? Stick works. Carrot doesn't work, it just encourages more of the same. It's in the interest of everyone to stop shitting in the streets, right? But if I get paid every time I take a shit in the street, then ...

Most communities don't need police to prevent this problem. Reading this thread, however, one is reminded that in some cities police are not enough.