Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#391

Post by sudosysgen » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

squibbles wrote: post #321

username90 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would anarchism prevent tribes, warlords, organizations, armies and countries to form? If you leave people to do whatever they want that is what they do, as can be seen all throughout humanities history. A system which doesn't prevent people from doing that isn't a system, instead you'll get the first despot who is charismatic enough to unite the people.

Anarchism does not prevent tribes, warlords, organizations, or armies - it is the absence of such constructs. If anyone is truly interested in applied anarchism, look to Somalia [0] and try to make a difference there. It's not all bad [1] [2], but I think there are many vastly superior alternatives. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Somalia_(1991%E2%80... [1] https://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/…

Somalia really isn't a good example of anarchy, there was still tons of hierarchies. Anarchists aren't libertarians, they're not content to just topple the state, you still need to form anarchist governments and institutions. Otherwise that's just anomie

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#392

Post by zanny » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #361

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #209

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

Eh I’m not sure politicians am have proved in recent times to be much better. And to that point, if you don’t trust your fellow person, why would you trust them to vote, or hold office? Why would you want them to wield real power? We need to fix this country. It starts with us. Vote. Run for office. Stop accepting mediocre government.

The system is stacked against fundamental change. Its why for going on 200 years there has always been a movement to "fix" society through government that never actually seems to get much of anywhere.

The only time, in the US at least, anything has led to long term appreciable change in society for the betterment of the working class was when capitalism was in legitimate fear for survival in the face of communist revolutions the world over aside the great depression. The FDR generation didn't go from effectively total labor exploitation unbounded to 40 hour work weeks, unions, paid vacation, and safety regulations because the collective bourgeois woke up one day thinking their time had come by happenstance. Concessions were made to preserve the power structures that gave immense power to few at the cost of the many.

The civil rights movement was comparable where the most popular speaker in the country was espousing socialism and class consciousness and had to be assassinated to stop his movement adjourning organized aggression by the Black Panthers who also were mass murdered. But all that blood only managed to move the dial a hairs breadth toward liberty.

We will all be good citizens voting for one of the two choices presented us by our rulers this November, many of us going into the polls knowing the structural organization of said process means our vote is totally meaningless - first past the post, winner take all races down a scorecard of positions 90% of which you know nothing about but the letters aside the names, names you probably only heard in TV or radio ads inundating you for two months prior. Its a mockery of actual democracy and largely always has been - there is a reason the US was founded to have an electorate of white, land owning men.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#393

Post by amscanne » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

The other flaw with that example is that there is obvious social pressure. If you try to cut the line, people will likely confront you. Situations where there’s no social pressure are different.

During University, I was a believer in co-ops as a form of organization. I lived in and was actively involved in student housing co-ops. During grad school, I lived in a large house with 12 other people. I was the house organizer, and arranged for and paid for our internet service. Everyone else in the house gave me ~$5/mo.

Except one person, who opted out. This person was a self-described anarchist activist, and extremely active from what I could see (lots of anarchist events, protests, marches, etc.). Halfway through the year, I discovered they had just “borrowed” the password from someone else in the house almost straight away, and used the connection as much as anyone.

So the anarchist activist (who would happily give you an unsolicited lecture on how “self-organizing” works), couldn’t even self-organize with his 12 house mates, and instead let a bunch of broke students cover them. (And this person wasn’t under-privileged or anything. I’m pretty sure their education wasn’t self-funded.)

So, yeah — even if you limit an anarchist society to just the true believers, I don’t think it’s gonna work.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#394

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

d4v3 wrote: post #374

komali2 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What examples of communism are you looking at that "haven't worked?" I really hope you aren't about to suggest the soviet union, that would be silly, considering it had a state, social classes, currency, and no general ownership of the means of production, and therefore wasn't communism. Might surprise you to learn that communism is working this very day, on communes all across the world. Also, the basic tenants of i…

Wow, if Soviet Union wasn't communist, wonder why there is such a gigantic section about it here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Soviet_Union

Because they called themselves Communist? Calling yourself something doesn't make it true.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#395

Post by username90 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #388

username90 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that voluntary donations isn't enough to run much at all, even for organizations that the worker is in control of. And a society needs roads. How would you ensure people pay for roads in an anarchist society? Would you have toll booths everywhere? That isn't economically feasible. Donations? As I said that isn't even enough to pay for a worker union, roads needs more than that.

Voluntary association, not voluntary donations. People need roads, when this problem is brought up they will be willing to pay for roads. If you are unwilling, you aren't part of the society anymore.

> People need roads, when this problem is brought up they will be willing to pay for roads. If you are unwilling, you aren't part of the society anymore.

Sounds like taxes to me.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#396

Post by waihtis » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #376

waihtis wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you infer that from my comment?

If you don't believe humans are capable of living reasonably without being forced, you're only living reasonably as you're being forced or you view yourself as "special."

False. I can live reasonably and believe most others would too, but also believe a sizeable enough populace would not - harming the whole populace.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#397

Post by wongarsu » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

surfpel wrote: post #290

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #209

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

While I’m also not an anarchist, I don’t believe these are good examples. In fact, they could be an argument for anarchism. With a lack of stimulus or even just in this economic system, bars and businesses in general are incentivized to stay open. They are being ‘coerced’ to stay open. People started rejecting masks and shutdowns en masse after astroturfing and media convinced them to. There are countries where order…

Just because you implement anarchism, you haven't automatically abolished capitalism. Bars would still be privately owned, and the owners would have incentive to keep them open in order to earn money to buy food (and protection etc).

In theory you could institute socialism in an arachic society. But that seems ... ill advised for anything larger than a small community. I can at least imagine socialism working in an exceptionally well organised state, but how would that work in a large-scale arnachy?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#398

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

[deleted]

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#399

Post by mcv » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

> "Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to"

I certainly used to believe that, but recent years have damaged my faith.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#400

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #264

dragonwriter wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can also have technological anarchic societies and indeed they exist. Where?

The Zapatistas are an example.

The Zapatista-governed area is at best parasitically technological (it uses imported technology, but neither creates nor maintains much of a technical base).

It certainly might be legitimately viewed as a step up for the most systemically disenfranchised, exploited, impoverished communities, but it's not a demonstration of a way that a technological society can be maintained.