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Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

theanarchistlibrary.org

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Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#161

Post by brianberns »

zozbot234 wrote: post #149
almost_usual wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this when dispersed camping, simple things like cleaning up at the campsite before leaving. Most people don’t have a problem with it but there are small groups who don’t care about anything. Those small groups tend to ruin it for everyone. You don’t see that at managed campgrounds because you will be fined.

> At a managed campground you don’t see this because you’ll be fined. Thus proving the superiority of private property over the complete anarchy of the commons.

Those aren't the only two options. You can have public property that isn't anarchy. That's how national parks work in the US.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#162

Post by sudosysgen »

shadowgovt wrote: post #49
Nursie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. It's a lovely dream, but humans are lazy, aquisitive, and many would sell their own grandmother to gain a perceived advantage.

I don't even think many would, the problem is that it only takes a few. The damage that a dedicated antisocial hyperminority can do to a society that lacks rules and enforcement of said is significant... Even more so in an age where technology acts as a force multiplier.

The idea of how an anarchic society would be run is that you would need strong social norms, and people willing to use violence in order to prevent authority from rising, which effectively deals with small antisocial minorities.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#163

Post by murgindrag »

Mary-Jane wrote: post #151
murgindrag wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Demonstrably how? Tens of thousands of years of human history. Feuding warlords, and slaves, rather than everyone acting together in unity. > What is a demonstrably false fairy tale is that we don't act righteously when law enforcement is present. So asking what would happen in its absence seems irrelevant. Well, we don't have mass rape, looting, or murder. One really needs to compare scale. Democracy seems to be a…

> Tens of thousands of years of human history. Feuding warlords, and slaves, rather than everyone acting together in unity. ummm, both of your specific examples are actually examples of those with power abusing it.

> ummm, both of your specific examples are actually examples of those with power abusing it

Precisely. Those are examples of how, unless you place explicit constraints on people's ability to amass power and abuse it, people will amass power and abuse it.

The whole history of progress in political systems could be oversimplified as a search for laws, structures, checks, and balances to prevent this from happening. In the absence of engineered ones, you revert into anarchy, which leads to individuals amassing power and abusing it.

Things like Democratic Structures, the Magna Carta, and the US Constitution were steps forward to prevent that. Heck, the rigid hierarchy of Ancient Egypt did better than the anarchy which came before. As a primitive form of government, it was incredibly inequitable, but you had far less theft and violence than before. That invention -- explicit governance structures and codified laws -- even in that form, allowed modern civilization.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#164

Post by sudosysgen »

dwighttk wrote: post #78
prrls wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchy doesn't mean "absence of law". Absence of law is anomie. One is often confused for the other, but there is a slight difference. Anarchy is more about you and your community having the autonomy to decide your own rules, not a central authority. I believe "autonomy" is the key word here, not "law".

The “nomy” in autonomy is law.

Then community autonomy means community law.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#165

Post by wcerfgba »

Anarchism is not a single political or economic philosophy, it is a very broad school of thought. I would not agree that the most basic principle of anarchism is self-organization. For me the nucleus of anarchism is that all authority should be questioned and that power structures of all kinds (not just governmental/state) should be analysed and dismantled.

If this has piqued your interest, you may wish to look in to libertarian socialism, which is a narrower strain of thought within the anarchist tradition, which advocates citizens assemblies, worker co-ops, and fractal councils, among other specific solutions to some of the issues raised in this thread.

Also, a short introductory video on anarchism from Philosophy Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCAUmh99hMI

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#166

Post by jkhdigital »

eyko wrote: post #82
oxymoran wrote: post #11

“Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to.” My anarchist sympathies want this to be true but this is a demonstrably false fairy tale. Just look at how we treat the planet and other living things in the presence of lawful order. Why would you assume that we would act righteously in the absence of law? It is painfully obvious th…

As Thomas Hobbes beautifully described what in his understanding would be the natural condition of mankind: "In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge…

Thank you for this thoughtful and well-written contribution to the discussion.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#167

Post by almost_usual »

brianberns wrote: post #161
zozbot234 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At a managed campground you don’t see this because you’ll be fined. Thus proving the superiority of private property over the complete anarchy of the commons.

Those aren't the only two options. You can have public property that isn't anarchy. That's how national parks work in the US.

State Parks and National Parks usually have zero tolerance for unwieldy behavior. National Forests are where you’ll see gunshot holes in signs and occasionally trash. I’ve seen entire burnt out vehicles in CA National Forests, it’s a little more wild west.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#168

Post by danielhua »

csours wrote: post #133

I don't understand anarchy. Take littering for an example. Would an anarchist system (oxymoron alert) have fines for littering? How about signs and a slogan? TV advertisements? Another example: I regularly volunteer at conventions. Somewhere between 90 and 95% of people follow the rules without much prompting. 5-10% of people don't... but I sincerely believe that without volunteers watching, that number would go up s…

I sincerely thought the author was joking at first. My lived experience is similar - some folks just genuinely act crappy just because they can, not because of "is actually caused by the systematic inequalities and injustice those armies, police, prisons and governments make possible."

Ironically, the more well-off are more likely to engage in explicitly anti-social behavior[1]...I'd hate to live in a world of anarchist Gordon Gekkos without an SEC.

[1] A quick article with various linked studies: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/10/wealth-can-make-us-se...

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#169

Post by sudosysgen »

I think an important thing that is lost here is that anarchists in practice do not advocate for removing all hierarchies. Just the most possible practically, which is a heck of a lot less hierarchy than we have now, and to crucially keep these hierarchies in check via rotations, direct democracy, and so on, to prevent any one person to accumulate much of any power at all; in essence making authority a painful chore.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#170

Post by cortic »

learnstats2 wrote: post #111
oxymoran wrote: post #11

“Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to.” My anarchist sympathies want this to be true but this is a demonstrably false fairy tale. Just look at how we treat the planet and other living things in the presence of lawful order. Why would you assume that we would act righteously in the absence of law? It is painfully obvious th…

Your assumption that people must behave better in the presence of authority - and therefore worse in the absence of it - is exactly the assumption that is under question.

I certainly behave worse in the presence of authority. It's unlikely I am the only one.
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