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Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#11

Post by michaelscott »

danielheath wrote: post #9
lordnacho wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, we tend to label every successful economy "capitalism", but actually if you look at Singapore there's some things that are not so obviously free market. Housing, for instance.

Gotta say, housing is one good that the free market seems to not really be amazing at. Here in Australia, it has become an investment vehicle; a huge amount of housing stock is empty while a third of the population are living in very poor accommodation.

The approach that seems to work is to give economically elastic things to the free market, and make economically inelastic things (housing, medical care, etc) a responsibility of the state. It's difficult to tell if this is the case as we can only look at macroeconomic effects in hindsight, and this approach would have many problems at scale, but this seems to be the most beneficial approach for society long term?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#12

Post by fakedang »

pydry wrote: post #7

There are a few key things to bear in mind about Singapore's growth model and success: * The proximity of power to population because it is a tiny city state. Singaporean governance is under extreme pressure to be effective because if it fails it cannot hide. This is a systemic issue that can be seen all around the world and is probably why some countries moved their capitals AWAY from population centres (e.g. brazil…

I was going to type a disagree until you edited that last bit. I don't mind the authoritarianism, since the authorities seem very proactive towards encouraging foreign tech startups, but creativity is near zero and heavily sanitized, and most devs are poorly treated, I guess due to the massive glut of technical folks for the tiny population it has.

Singapore feels so artificial, just like another Dubai. Going to London and now a smaller city in Germany was like a breath of fresh air. Startups grow "organically", as in without the government machinery shoved up their arse, people are freer to pursue whatever interests them, and since you can actually see the good and the bad in the city, you actually feel that the city is a living entity. Compare that to SG or DXB, where the homeless are stashed away/deported so that the tourists don't see them.

Recently Singapore has been making a push for the arts, yet it's clearly evident how inorganic the output is - one can clearly notice the wannabeism.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#13

Post by pydry »

baybal2 wrote: post #10
pydry wrote: post #7

There are a few key things to bear in mind about Singapore's growth model and success: * The proximity of power to population because it is a tiny city state. Singaporean governance is under extreme pressure to be effective because if it fails it cannot hide. This is a systemic issue that can be seen all around the world and is probably why some countries moved their capitals AWAY from population centres (e.g. brazil…

> Lee's economic policies were, while good, largely not his idea. He had the good sense to follow this guy's proscriptions though On Winsemius, in its early history, Singapore was indeed using a cargo cult mass industrialisation, and it of course was only half successful. A much less "genius" idea of turning the country into an offshore finance centre was what made it, and it was not his idea. It was Lee junior, who…

Being an offshore finance centre isn't something you can just become. It requires an industrial or resource extraction base to generate wealth (e.g. Dubai/singapore/London/NYC) or a client state relationship with a powerful country (Bahamas). Lesotho, for instance, would never be able to do this and neither would 1950s Singapore.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#14

Post by freddie_mercury »

pydry wrote: post #7

There are a few key things to bear in mind about Singapore's growth model and success: * The proximity of power to population because it is a tiny city state. Singaporean governance is under extreme pressure to be effective because if it fails it cannot hide. This is a systemic issue that can be seen all around the world and is probably why some countries moved their capitals AWAY from population centres (e.g. brazil…

I live in Vietnam and I've always been surprised at the large number of Singaporean tech companies that open up development offices in Vietnam. And it isn't (just) to save money on salaries. The average quality of a Singaporean developer is shockingly bad for such an educated, developed country.

And saying that Vietnam has more creativity isn't exactly a high bar given the similar values of Confucian hierarchy here!

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#15

Post by pydry »

fakedang wrote: post #12
pydry wrote: post #7

There are a few key things to bear in mind about Singapore's growth model and success: * The proximity of power to population because it is a tiny city state. Singaporean governance is under extreme pressure to be effective because if it fails it cannot hide. This is a systemic issue that can be seen all around the world and is probably why some countries moved their capitals AWAY from population centres (e.g. brazil…

I was going to type a disagree until you edited that last bit. I don't mind the authoritarianism, since the authorities seem very proactive towards encouraging foreign tech startups, but creativity is near zero and heavily sanitized, and most devs are poorly treated, I guess due to the massive glut of technical folks for the tiny population it has. Singapore feels so artificial, just like another Dubai. Going to Lond…

I also noticed that the foreign startups they lured in with their juicy incentives were not the better ones. Nonetheless they probably still believe that the same techniques that brought in Shell in the early days needed to be adapted for the "modern world".

Despite throwing money at tech salaries are still poor. Everybody gets that money except the developers.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#16

Post by throwiway97r »

danielheath wrote: post #9
lordnacho wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, we tend to label every successful economy "capitalism", but actually if you look at Singapore there's some things that are not so obviously free market. Housing, for instance.

Gotta say, housing is one good that the free market seems to not really be amazing at. Here in Australia, it has become an investment vehicle; a huge amount of housing stock is empty while a third of the population are living in very poor accommodation.

Having embarked on a house hunt in an Australian city, I’m surprised by how many of the houses I see (especially the more “affordable” homes) are empty on inspection. I assumed they were vacant post-lease, but your point about the houses being empty as a result of speculation is quite plausible. That’s crazy.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#17

Post by not_a_moth »

Singapore's population is very conservative, e.g. live with parents until marry, homosexuality is illegal, a lot of pressure against interracial couples (my experience), and essentially a single, dominant media voice.

There is a militant approach to education which produces nice test results, but it doesn't produce young entrepreneurs, just conservative careers, helped by statutory hiring quotas. I don't think the Singapore model produces much innovation, they just really opened up to innovative foreign companies.

(Some reflections from my time living there)

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#18

Post by xuki »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #14
pydry wrote: post #7

There are a few key things to bear in mind about Singapore's growth model and success: * The proximity of power to population because it is a tiny city state. Singaporean governance is under extreme pressure to be effective because if it fails it cannot hide. This is a systemic issue that can be seen all around the world and is probably why some countries moved their capitals AWAY from population centres (e.g. brazil…

I live in Vietnam and I've always been surprised at the large number of Singaporean tech companies that open up development offices in Vietnam. And it isn't (just) to save money on salaries. The average quality of a Singaporean developer is shockingly bad for such an educated, developed country. And saying that Vietnam has more creativity isn't exactly a high bar given the similar values of Confucian hierarchy here!

The best developers in Singapore usually work in SV, because Singaporeans have access to H-1B1 which makes it extremely easy for them to move over.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#19

Post by xuki »

The article failed to mention 1 important thing: LKY built an incorruptible government. With all the power he had, he could have done so much better for his family if he just tried, but that wouldn't necessarily be good for the country. A lot of countries want to be Singapore, but few have a leader of his caliber.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#20

Post by logicchains »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #14
pydry wrote: post #7

There are a few key things to bear in mind about Singapore's growth model and success: * The proximity of power to population because it is a tiny city state. Singaporean governance is under extreme pressure to be effective because if it fails it cannot hide. This is a systemic issue that can be seen all around the world and is probably why some countries moved their capitals AWAY from population centres (e.g. brazil…

I live in Vietnam and I've always been surprised at the large number of Singaporean tech companies that open up development offices in Vietnam. And it isn't (just) to save money on salaries. The average quality of a Singaporean developer is shockingly bad for such an educated, developed country. And saying that Vietnam has more creativity isn't exactly a high bar given the similar values of Confucian hierarchy here!

Vietnam has twenty times the population of Singapore; it's not surprising that it'd be easier to find good developers there. It's also harder for good Vietnamese developers to emigrate to somewhere with better pay like the US, compared to Singaporean developers.

>And saying that Vietnam has more creativity isn't exactly a high bar given the similar values of Confucian hierarchy here!

I know some mainland Chinese who live in Singapore, and they often complain about how closed-minded the locals are. If Vietnam is similar to China in that regard, then it might well be less hierarchical than Singapore (Chinese culture seems much less hierarchical than some other Confucian-influenced cultures like Japan/Korea, maybe due to the communist revolution actively demonising Confucious, and Vietnam also had a similar revolution).

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