The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices • Hacker News Board

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#121

Post by topkai22 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 7:55 AM UTC

The issue brought up by the author are real, but I think many aren't necessarily inherent to remote work but are due to society and norms not having adapted to it yet. I've run a remote team for years and quite explicitly encourage socialization, develop new hires and thier connections, and encourage boundaries (mostly by telling people to stop working at 530p). We have few of the problems that are often claimed to be endemic in remote, because we have actively worked to build a culture that avoids them.

Even at a wider, multi-group level, we are able to address issues of innovation and serendipity by creating time and space for them. One of the best tricks is encouraging lots of small presentations on non-work or semi-work topics followed by lots of open ended conversation. People show up by mutual interest outside of their project based work and talk. I run a book club roughly themed to application development and every session I meet new people from across the org and exchange ideas. Some of these contacts have resulted in valuable insights for later projects. Volunteer projects and hackathons can serve a similar purpose.

These are just examples and we are hardly perfect, but I if the projections of an massive increase in WFH bear out at all, you'll see culture adapt to it as well- people will get better at socializing on screen, feel more free to ping with questions, and will find these alternate avenues to collaborate. I'm less confident that society outside of work will adapt as well, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a long term increase in young people continue to live with extended family or social clubs.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#122

Post by AdrianB1 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:11 AM UTC

slykar wrote: post #40

supernova87a wrote: post #5

WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (of organization). -- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior per…

> For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible. Working remotely for a small company with a few people from around the world and it's going fine. We are in contact when we have to be. I can cut distractions when I need to. No open space office bulshit. I was raised on IM. I'm fine communicating like this. If I…

> I was raised on IM. I'm fine communicating like this. If I need to talk I can always call someone.

It is not about you being comfortable with IM, it is about doing an A/B comparison of the 2 options. You don't know what you don't know, if you don't compare with being in the office then "being fine" does not mean "it's better", it can be worse and you don't know it.

I am working from home a lot for ~ 12 years, I still go to the office from time to time not because I have to, but because it is good to. Those days are a complete waste of time in terms of productivity, sometimes I don't open my laptop the whole day, but they are priceless for other reasons; I talk to people all day long, the kind of discussions you don't plan and send invites with an agenda upfront.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#123

Post by AdrianB1 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:13 AM UTC

andybak wrote: post #63

konjin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They should just pay you instead of paying the insane office rent. Or pay the shareholders instead. Or the CEO. Or ... you are a cost center for your company. Why would they pay you more than the minimum anyone than they would for any other cost center? That said you should negotiate for an extra room as a part of doing business. >I was raised on IM. I'm fine communicating like this. If I need to talk I can always c…

> Why would they pay you more than the minimum anyone than they would for any other cost center? Maybe because you're a resource and not a cost center? It's not always the case - some job roles are fungible - but I don't think that's the case with a typical HN denizen. Let me put it another way. Why is paying the CEO more a better use of money to paying an employee more? Doesn't that build in a lot of assumptions abo…

It is not about what is better, but what the company considers to be better; it is not the employee's decision, the company may simply decide that raising CEO's bonus or the dividends is the best. The comment was not advocating this, just telling how it happens in the real world.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#124

Post by hindsightbias » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:21 AM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #5

WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (of organization). -- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior per…

You’re never going to find your next leader on slack.

Young organizations are going to tend towards collapse while most old organizations are paralyzed but can coast longer on the inertia of pre-existing structures.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#125

Post by AdrianB1 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:33 AM UTC

benrbray wrote: post #31

frompdx wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think it is necessary. It's one thing to share your experience about remote work as the author does. It's something entirely different to interleave it with with vague concerns of economic hardship for younger people or stunted career growth for women. What is the purpose of this? In my mind I imagine a boardroom full of Don Draper types sipping scotch and smoking cigarettes fretting over the decline in office l…

Sure, if there's evidence that the author is not really who they say they are, by all means go ahead and point it out. However, you just seem to be making vague accusations about some grand conspiracy by corporate real estate developers, rather than addressing the article's very legitimate points. As a young person working remotely, everything the author says reflects my own experience. It is very much a fact that re…

The author may be authentic, it does not prevent her to have an agenda. The article has some points, quite weak, unstructured and unsupported with evidence (like "it's bad for women"), there is nothing that guarantees it's not paid for by someone with an agenda. There is no proof in the opposite direction either, so we should read it open-minded and without expectations.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#126

Post by AdrianB1 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:40 AM UTC

benrbray wrote: post #9

As a recent graduate with an overseas job offer who has been left with no choice but to work remotely until Japan re-opens its borders to foreign workers, this really hits home. My student apartment is not equipped for this lifestyle. I do not have a home office in a sprawling estate in the suburbs on several acres of property where I can enjoy the sounds of nature. I live in a small apartment on a busy street surrou…

If you want your life to begin, give it a kick start by moving out of the city to a larger place in the suburbs where the Internet is still good, but the space is cheaper and you can set up properly to work from home.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#127

Post by chewz » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 9:24 AM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #5

WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (of organization). -- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior per…

> -- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible.

Why have kids if spending time with them is such a burden?

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#128

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 9:25 AM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #126

benrbray wrote: post #9

As a recent graduate with an overseas job offer who has been left with no choice but to work remotely until Japan re-opens its borders to foreign workers, this really hits home. My student apartment is not equipped for this lifestyle. I do not have a home office in a sprawling estate in the suburbs on several acres of property where I can enjoy the sounds of nature. I live in a small apartment on a busy street surrou…

If you want your life to begin, give it a kick start by moving out of the city to a larger place in the suburbs where the Internet is still good, but the space is cheaper and you can set up properly to work from home.

This may be a moot point post Covid, but if I were young and single, the burbs would be depressing. A lot of old married couples with kids - like me.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#129

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 9:31 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #97

For some people writing software is an inherently social experience: contributing to a team, learning from colleagues, exchanging ideas in person. For others software is an experience of research and crafting which requires minimal feedback and no social interaction to grow and experiment. Like everything else in life this comes down to personal needs and expectations. To say working from home results in a lost gener…

> For others software is an experience of research and crafting which requires minimal feedback and no social interaction to grow and experiment.

If you are young and new in your career, I don’t see how it could not stunt your career or lead to being an “expert beginner” without getting feedback.

This definitely happened to me for the first decade of my career. Not working remotely, working either as a sole developer or working with two or three other self taught developers who had been with the company forever.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#130

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 9:37 AM UTC

chewz wrote: post #127

supernova87a wrote: post #5

WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (of organization). -- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior per…

> -- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible. Why have kids if spending time with them is such a burden?

Because kids are a long-term investments in happiness. Also, they're not that big of a burden when you have access to institutions such as grandparents, babysitters, daycare, kindergarten and schools. All of which got shut down due to pandemic.