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The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

theatlantic.com

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Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#91

Post by ashtonkem »

supernova87a wrote: post #5

WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (of organization). -- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior per…

> For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible.

I’d argue that this not working is a good thing. “Force of personality” isn’t a scalable thing, it tends to inexorably tie a company to the failings of one person, and easily transitions into a cult of personality.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#92

Post by ashtonkem »

chadash wrote: post #8
supernova87a wrote: post #5

WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (of organization). -- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior per…

> And that's aside from the point that, when everyone is remote, you're also competing with the world who is also remote. Yup... once everyone is remote anyway, won't take too long for some manager to decide to offshore work to cheaper countries. Even if that doesn't happen to you, if it happens to enough people elsewhere it'll bring salaries down for everyone.

I disagree. Time zone, communication, and cultural familiarity are still factors.

Practically speaking if you’re an American dev, your biggest competition isn’t someone from Ukraine or India, but rather a fellow American that’s moved to Iowa.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#93

Post by ci5er »

benrbray wrote: post #85
ci5er wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are very (very!) generous with this. Tokyo ain't CA (for example, I can't imagine he would want to drive anywhere for a good while). There are more forgiving environments (and processes!), but it sounds as if he's going to have to spend some time on the ground to figure that out. It can be a weird place for six-or-so months.

Actually, the problem is that I'm stuck in Atlanta, unable to enter Japan due to their coronavirus travel restrictions. Whenever I do make it to Tokyo, I think the remote work experience will be a lot more pleasant due to the overall better designed city.

Maybe!

I always found Shimizu delightful, but worked in Tokyo for about 12~15 years (depending on how you count gaps), so I certainly can't criticize anyone for choosing that path!

If I had it all over to do again, I would probably choose a blend of Tokyo and Shimizu and Nagoya (maybe 3~4 years each?), but I really hate to move, so I probably end up with one and just stay there and hang out with yakuza in akachochin, because I fall into ruts of behavior.

EDIT: I have kind of a life-time pass, a marriage pass and a couple of kids that ended being able to be citizens, so it is surely a lot easier for me to come-and-go than it is for you - and I don't intend to be glib to the fact that you are probably trying to get a work visa (I started there!)

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#94

Post by RandoHolmes »

alexbanks wrote: post #90
RandoHolmes wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think WFH is particularly difficult for young people, not because they don't have access to seniors (or any other such drivel), but because they often don't have the discipline necessary for it. For example, I've been doing freelance work for well over 10 years now and I eventually started insisting on having an extra office with a strict policy of the room is for work only (even if not paying work). The thing is,…

Can I ask why you think that young people are inherently less disciplined?

Most children do not take on the responsibility of setting an alarm, getting up in the morning, cooking for themselves, and then walking to the bus stop to take the bus to school (or their own car).

Pretty much every adult does this as a matter of course.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#95

Post by brsg »

pritovido wrote: post #32

As a long term worker from home I feel a sense of victimhood that floods all the article. I understand that most people are working for a company so others tell her what to do after school when they also train you what to do and you are micromanaged all the time. The article portrays that you need your boss to create your social circle for you. People do not see that as the enormous opportunity that it is. For exampl…

People are "allowed" to be frustrated with the situation, and I think it's a little dismissive to accuse them of having "victimhood".

It's perfectly reasonable to miss direct interactions with coworkers, and there's nothing wrong with being friends with your coworkers. Video chats really aren't comparable for most people.

It's perfectly reasonable to be frustrated that you're stuck in a crowded apartment with roommates and no office space. The WFH change happened virtually overnight for many people.

It's perfectly reasonable to be fearful that a junior contributor's career may stall during this. Most companies' cultures weren't built around this system, so it's pretty rational to expect companies to struggle recognizing junior employees.

Obviously people can and will adjust, but criticizing an imperfect system is the only way it will improve - it's not a sign of weakness.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#96

Post by benrbray »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #86
necubi wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you are someone who strongly believes in the superiority of remote work, but is it really that hard to believe that there are people who disagree? I'm a software engineer with no connection to the commercial real-estate industry, and I'm pretty sure I haven't been a "victim of a subtle PR campaign." And yet I find remote work alienating and psychologically difficult, and I'm eager for a return to the office.…

If there are people in your org / social circle who agree with you, why not form an ad-hoc office amongst yourselves?

This already does happen, c.f. coworking spaces, but it's not really a solution. Many of the benefits of an office (career-wise) only happen when one's coworkers are in the office with them. Coworking spaces where everyone is working remotely together aren't really the same.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#97

Post by austincheney »

For some people writing software is an inherently social experience: contributing to a team, learning from colleagues, exchanging ideas in person. For others software is an experience of research and crafting which requires minimal feedback and no social interaction to grow and experiment. Like everything else in life this comes down to personal needs and expectations.

To say working from home results in a lost generation is excessive, almost to absurd. It is beneficial to some people and harmful to others regardless of financial or familial situations.

Furthermore that opinion only makes sense in a vacuum, such as for people who do nothing else and are limited to a single job solely focused upon writing software. Once your professional experience has broadened a bit absolutes like this subject become more clear for the limitations that they are.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#98

Post by frankpf »

alexbanks wrote: post #90
RandoHolmes wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think WFH is particularly difficult for young people, not because they don't have access to seniors (or any other such drivel), but because they often don't have the discipline necessary for it. For example, I've been doing freelance work for well over 10 years now and I eventually started insisting on having an extra office with a strict policy of the room is for work only (even if not paying work). The thing is,…

Can I ask why you think that young people are inherently less disciplined?

I think it's been observed by many psychology studies that conscientiousness (the personality trait that determines self discipline and self control) tends to increase with age. Excerpt from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2562318/:

"Agreeableness demonstrated a fairly linear increase with age whereas the pattern for Conscientiousness was curvilinear: scores increased up to a peak somewhere between the ages of 50 to 70 and then declined."

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#99

Post by chii »

alexbanks wrote: post #90
RandoHolmes wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think WFH is particularly difficult for young people, not because they don't have access to seniors (or any other such drivel), but because they often don't have the discipline necessary for it. For example, I've been doing freelance work for well over 10 years now and I eventually started insisting on having an extra office with a strict policy of the room is for work only (even if not paying work). The thing is,…

Can I ask why you think that young people are inherently less disciplined?

I will facetious say that it's (reverse) agism against young people by older people.

Re: The social and economic costs borne by young people without offices

#100

Post by gbear605 »

RandoHolmes wrote: post #94
alexbanks wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask why you think that young people are inherently less disciplined?

Most children do not take on the responsibility of setting an alarm, getting up in the morning, cooking for themselves, and then walking to the bus stop to take the bus to school (or their own car). Pretty much every adult does this as a matter of course.

...perhaps other than the breakfast part, that’s exactly what most teenagers do every morning (at least in non-COVID) times.

Certainly children don’t, if you’re only talking about prepubescent children, but they’re also not particularly relevant to a discussion about working from home.

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