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The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

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Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#151

Post by camgunz »

dominotw wrote: post #25
camgunz wrote: post #10

Ezra Klein had Ross Douthat (the author) on his podcast to discuss the book and it’s a great conversation. Highly recommend. It’s billed as a debate but it’s not at all contentious, at least I didn’t get that impression. https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/6/17/21293202/ross-douthat...

came here to post this. > . It’s billed as a debate but it’s not at all contentious, Does Erza ever debate though?( not counting sam harris episode). He seem to invite ppl who already kind of agree with his worldview and amplifies their thoughts. He was on IQsuared debates but it wasn't a debate, he was just reading excerpts out of his book.

Eh, I haven't run the numbers or anything but, he has a fair number of people he strongly disagrees w/ on (Grover Norquist, Yuval Levin) mostly just to talk. He definitely doesn't observe the fairness doctrine, but it's questionable whether that's even possible these days. But regardless I don't think he's under any obligation here.

I would agree his podcast... well excepting Sam Harris I've never heard what I would call a debate on there. But I will say in listening to people on there I don't agree with, I've learned a lot and gained a lot of insight. I think it's been good bubble popping, if not like jumping totally into the pool.

For more bubble popping I'd recommend The Flip Side [1]. You get an email every day or two with Red/Blue takes on issues. They do a good job being faithful to both sides (at least, IMO), plus it's free.

[1]: https://www.theflipside.io/

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#152

Post by 0134340 »

pdonis wrote: post #85
francisofascii wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may take a century to realized it, but I think you are right. Historians will look back and see America's car-centric culture as its height of extreme decadence and the pivotal point to its eventual decline. When you think about the trucks and SUVs that people drive around everywhere, the entire infrastructure dedicated to it, the health outcomes, etc.

I disagree. Cars are freedom. Freedom has upsides as well as downsides. Technological advances will continue to reduce the downsides, but the upsides are genuine and should not be thrown away. There's a reason why electric cars are a thing, as opposed to Americans just giving up cars and everyone using public transportation.

Since we live in a somewhat closed ecosystem, you're exchanging freedom now with freedom later with the costs we will pay from the excesses of material luxury. Until we open up the ecosystem, ie, get off earth or really learn to decrease waste, this "freedom" you speak will eventually come around to imprison us if we're not careful.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#153

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

nottorp wrote: post #132
waynenilsen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you would be very interested in the rest of the document. That is very similar to the point that the author makes throughout. He suggests that spending more time on fulfilling our primitive needs of food water and shelter would result in a much more satisfying lifestyle and much higher quality of life.

Oh possibly, but it sounds too much like "keep the plebs busy so they don't have time to develop independent thinking".

That's pretty far from what he's suggesting.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#154

Post by seertaak »

voldacar wrote: post #99
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #23

This is a fascinating discussion because it hits directly at a topic that civilization-after-civilization has faced throughout history: are we able to reasonably assess whether we are continuing towards growth and progress or stagnation and extinction? Frankly, the historical record is not encouraging. Usually, when this topic comes up people chime in with easy takeaways like "people have always complained about this…

It is interesting to note that if you read Roman generals' letters from the fourth/fifth centuries AD, they seem like they have no idea that their civilization is in the late stages of decline, something totally easy for us to recognize millennia later. It's weird and uncanny, and kind of concerning given contemporary circumstances

That's really interesting. Do you know if this cluelessness extended beyond the military elites?

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#155

Post by 0134340 »

ChomskyNormal4m wrote: post #29

> little or no growth in working-class wages, lower social mobility Murray, and the AEI he works for, have fought against higher wages for workers and social mobility for decades. I don't take seriously him bemoaning the results of what he has helped do.

How does he reconcile his form of degeneracy in fighting to keep people at the top of society rich and decadent while pushing the poor down? When people are pushed down too much they can also grow degenerate and decadent as the very rich and develop mental and physical issues which may devolve into drinking and other forms of drug use.

To me, this represents the paradox of morality. That in a closed (somewhat in this case) ecosystem the extremes can horseshoe around, which reminds of horseshoe theory in politics as well as this phenomenon of society seemingly rubberbanding when forcefully pushed to one extreme throughout history. I could go on about my pet theory of how it may relate to thermodynamic regulation on Earth's ecosystem, a self-sustaining form of gradient moderation, but it's too unsubstantiated.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#156

Post by Funes- »

leetcrew wrote: post #93
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #23

This is a fascinating discussion because it hits directly at a topic that civilization-after-civilization has faced throughout history: are we able to reasonably assess whether we are continuing towards growth and progress or stagnation and extinction? Frankly, the historical record is not encouraging. Usually, when this topic comes up people chime in with easy takeaways like "people have always complained about this…

> Hell, ask a few people when the Western Roman Empire ended. Good luck with that. There are folks who will tell you it never did end. If you're that far in denial, how could you ever reason from your current historical position to the long run? AFAIK, the argument over when the western empire fell is not so much about the facts, so much as the meaning of the word "fall". it's inherently arbitrary to point to the "en…

>cultural/ethnic mixing

Those two, as far as I know, are the same thing. I know biological "race" has some negative connotations, but I guess you could also say "ecotype" to refer to roughly the same thing, which I reckon was what you were trying to do--correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#157

Post by Voliokis »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #133
Voliokis wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I agree with him because of things like Covid being self-inflicted. We're so unable, as a species, to avoid even known risks (yes, we've known about the risk of new Coronaviruses since SARS), prepare for them, or deal with them when they've actually occurred. Even now, a not insignificant part of the US population thinks Covid is a hoax. Or that climate change is a hoax. We're reaching a point where catastroph…

Respectfully, politicians you don't like gaining power isn't evidence of the system buckling. The other issues aren't exactly un concerning, but I think we have to acknowledge that this is a quite peaceful time. For most of history, what we call "unrest" was the status quo, and there were in addition wars of open territorial conquest which are nearly extinct today.

Considering the things the Republicans and Trump have done in the past years, it's not just about "not liking Republicans".

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#158

Post by Voliokis »

refurb wrote: post #140
Voliokis wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I agree with him because of things like Covid being self-inflicted. We're so unable, as a species, to avoid even known risks (yes, we've known about the risk of new Coronaviruses since SARS), prepare for them, or deal with them when they've actually occurred. Even now, a not insignificant part of the US population thinks Covid is a hoax. Or that climate change is a hoax. We're reaching a point where catastroph…

You may want to refresh your knowledge of American history. All those things you flag have always existed. It’s no different now. History tends to get highly filtered and very little attention is paid to the incredibly bumpy road those times represent.

Yes, yes, ignore the catastrophic consequences of climate change and the political unrest that we're already seeing because of it. "We've had all this before, it's fine". Oh fuck off.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#159

Post by Alekhine »

voldacar wrote: post #100
marcus_holmes wrote: post #67

I realise this is a review, not the actual text. But still. This is utter bollocks. It's typical of non-technical "intellectuals" to completely ignore the main areas of modern human progress, simply because they don't understand them. e.g. the whole discussion on Art completely ignores Video Games, which are undoubtedly Art, and also an area of rapid innovation and development. Yet they're usually dismissed out of ha…

Video games are indeed a form of media, but I think it is misleading to say they are art in the same sense as this author intends. Art and mass entertainment are only superficially similar, and most video games are made to entertain. Video games are (generally) consumable goods created to provide an amount of temporary pleasure. Good art is recognized not just by beauty or the skill required to create it, but by its…

You should take a look at Pathologic. If you're looking for high art in games, that's what I'd recommend. Watch Hbomberguy's video on YouTube if you're curious.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#160

Post by lcall »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #23

This is a fascinating discussion because it hits directly at a topic that civilization-after-civilization has faced throughout history: are we able to reasonably assess whether we are continuing towards growth and progress or stagnation and extinction? Frankly, the historical record is not encouraging. Usually, when this topic comes up people chime in with easy takeaways like "people have always complained about this…

I think the solution is for individuals to choose a purpose to life that is not selfish or destructive; i.e., something good more than pleasure, power, or attention. I have written extensive suggestions with supporting detail, for whether one is religious or not, I hope in a skimmable way at my simple-tech site: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854588981.html

(If downvoting, a thoughtful comment is appreciated; thank you.)

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