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Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

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Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#341
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if they were better, people would pay for them. That’s how the market is supposed to work.

A market also has the option to decide that a type of product is simply not economically viable. However, certain products, while not being economically viable, can be socially necessary, so alternative models need to be found. News obviously falls in this category, similarly to public transport, healthcare and education. In those cases, other means of supporting the product can be found - usually, direct state inter…

> certain products, while not being economically viable, can be socially necessary, so alternative models need to be found. News obviously falls in this category, similarly to public transport, healthcare and education

Totally agree. News can be paid for via government support (BBC), direct public support via donations (NPR, PBS), support from foundations (CSPAN), subscriptions (Atlantic, FT, WSJ). Advertising is the worst way — and if news is of great value, we should pay with money rather than attention AND money.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone was peaceful all day and then commits murder, maybe the murder only takes 5 minutes, or 30 seconds ... would you proceed to characterize their day as mostly peaceful? I mean, mathematically yes, but it points to how this word ‘mostly’ is what journalism teaches is a weasel-word. It renders the statement meaningless.

Well there is your problem - you are literally treating a large collection of very different people like a single person or hive mind. Seriously pause and reflect since that usually comes up with very severe bigots and is pretty far down the dehumanization ladder.

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Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-bo... , this is definitely a good list of "foundational texts of Western civilization" as they say, but the world is a lot more interconnected than it was in 1696, and this curriculum leaves out most of it. There's nothing wrong with studying one part of the world or one community of ideas as long as you're open about it, but I don't think I would b…

> It reminds me a little of some culinary schools where the whole curriculum is based on French cooking, and you take like one class on "global cuisine" that covers the entire rest of the world. You can't pick one focus area and claim it's all you need for a full education. Who said school had anything to do with having a full education? That's kind of the whole point of the unschooling movement. Culinary Schools pri…

> Who said school had anything to do with having a full education?

A few quotes from the website:

"With interdisciplinary, world-changing teachers like Einstein, Descartes, and Socrates, St. John’s students have a competitive advantage in any field."

"Offering comprehensive undergraduate and graduate liberal arts programs"

"Our liberal arts undergraduate program is a truly comprehensive education that is perhaps the most rigorous in America."

"St. John’s College is persuaded that a genuine liberal education requires the study of great books—texts of words, symbols, notes, and pictures—because they are both timeless and timely. These books are the most important teachers. They illuminate the persisting questions of human existence and they bear directly on the problems we face today. They express most originally, and often most perfectly, the ideas by which contemporary life is knowingly or unknowingly governed. Their authors can speak to us almost as freshly as when they spoke for the first time, for what they have to tell us is not of merely academic concern, nor is it remote from our true interests. They change our minds, move our hearts, and touch our spirits."

This statement is especially grandiose: https://www.sjc.edu/application/files/2615/9916/9280/St_John...

> If you're in culinary school to begin with, you probably care about food and you will be able to teach yourself the rest from that base.

I know many people who went to culinary school in America because they were inspired by the food they grew up with and wanted to learn more so they could start a restaurant or study it or something, and were disappointed when it was mostly French cooking and their culture was barely touched on. In that case, the school did not fit their expectations and desires. I'm sure that culinary schools meet most student's expectations or they wouldn't continue to exist, but I think it's worth mentioning that all the top schools seem to follow the same basic pattern, at least from what I've been told. It's not like you can pick the French school or the West African school or the Japanese school when you're an American looking to enter a school in your country. Anyway I think I should stop talking about this because I really don't know much about culinary schools, I just meant it as a loose analogy.

> SJC is the same way. They're fitting the curriculum to the expectations and desires of their incoming students. The whole point of that education is to teach you how to think for yourself, not to fill your head with data points.

I'm not sure what you mean by data points, but I guess what I'm saying is if I wanted to design a curriculum around the fundamentals of thinking for myself, I would want to make it as varied and and broad as possible. I want to know how everybody thinks, not just people near me. If I'm reading the foundational texts of American history, I also want to read those of Chinese history. I want to read the Koran along with the Bible (and maybe multiple translations/interpretations of each). I want to read Ramayana along with the Iliad.

I understand that not everybody wants the same things as me! Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with studying Western thought. I just think it's wrong to talk about the greatest books and thinkers and teachers when there's an implicit "of the Western canon" next to each of those. Just be open about it, and it's ok.

> School, ...ANY... school, is just about establishing a baseline to make you comparable against your peers.

No modern student should believe that their only peers are Western-educated.

> In both cases, I don't think you really understand the point of what you're looking at.

I guess I agree.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there's enough conflicting information out there, fact checking just turns back into fact finding, doesn't it?

I mean people don't need to go gather primary sources as much if every important event has thousands of smartphone cameras at the scene.

Most of what gets uploaded anywhere or even worse, the stuff that goes viral, has a pretty heavy selection bias. To know whether the stuff that got shared publicly tells the whole story or a misleading story, you have to know more than just what got shared publicly.

Maybe the event that everyone pulled out their phones for had some important context beforehand, but at that point it didn't look noteworthy enough to pull out anyone's phone for. Now you'll have tons of recordings of the same event, but that doesn't mean any more context than one video.

I prefer a story written by someone who was there to a story written by someone who looked through all the thousands of posts to social media, but wasn't there.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#345

When I was 15, there was a bus bombing near my school. A kid in my class was the grandson of a well known politician. A newspaper ran with a completely made up story about how it was his bus line, and how the grandfather had panicked. A few days later a fact checker called his mom. Not sure if they ran a retraction. It seemed incredibly disrespectful to those who were on the bus. Two died. About a year after that, so…

> TJ should have understood this. He was a pamphleteer after all. The rights of man is pure fiction, to quote Yuval Noah Harari. If you dissect a person, you will find no rights inside.

What a fatuous remark. If you dissect a person, will you find numbers? Concepts? Why would you ever expect to find rights in a man as if they were organs? Naturally, a materialistic view of the universe will lead you down this path, but it's such a patently incoherent metaphysics that you can only wonder about the sanity of the materialist.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It reminds me a little of some culinary schools where the whole curriculum is based on French cooking, and you take like one class on "global cuisine" that covers the entire rest of the world. You can't pick one focus area and claim it's all you need for a full education. Who said school had anything to do with having a full education? That's kind of the whole point of the unschooling movement. Culinary Schools pri…

> Who said school had anything to do with having a full education? A few quotes from the website: "With interdisciplinary, world-changing teachers like Einstein, Descartes, and Socrates, St. John’s students have a competitive advantage in any field." "Offering comprehensive undergraduate and graduate liberal arts programs" "Our liberal arts undergraduate program is a truly comprehensive education that is perhaps the…

> I know many people who went to culinary school in America because they were inspired by the food they grew up with and wanted to learn more so they could start a restaurant or study it or something, and were disappointed when it was mostly French cooking and their culture was barely touched on. In that case, the school did not fit their expectations and desires. I'm sure that culinary schools meet most student's expectations or they wouldn't continue to exist, but I think it's worth mentioning that all the top schools seem to follow the same basic pattern, at least from what I've been told. It's not like you can pick the French school or the West African school or the Japanese school when you're an American looking to enter a school in your country. Anyway I think I should stop talking about this because I really don't know much about culinary schools, I just meant it as a loose analogy.

It's not much different than people who aimlessly go to college without a specific goal in mind. It's a hilariously reckless thing to do and really naive.

All of these schools are really upfront about what their curriculum is before you apply.

Are we really advocating for catering to people who do not do their due diligence?

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who said school had anything to do with having a full education? A few quotes from the website: "With interdisciplinary, world-changing teachers like Einstein, Descartes, and Socrates, St. John’s students have a competitive advantage in any field." "Offering comprehensive undergraduate and graduate liberal arts programs" "Our liberal arts undergraduate program is a truly comprehensive education that is perhaps the…

> I know many people who went to culinary school in America because they were inspired by the food they grew up with and wanted to learn more so they could start a restaurant or study it or something, and were disappointed when it was mostly French cooking and their culture was barely touched on. In that case, the school did not fit their expectations and desires. I'm sure that culinary schools meet most student's ex…

Maybe we can agree that there's concerns on both sides. You shouldn't join a college without researching it, and colleges should try their best to represent themselves as transparently as possible.

Personally I also hold college administrators to higher standards than high school students.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best approach is to read a story from a left, right and centrist source. The intersection of "facts" is probably all true and the things that point far one direction or the other are probably in the middle somewhere.

This is the argument to moderation [1] also known as the golden mean fallacy. If one person says the sky is blue and another person says the sky is yellow, by taking the middle position you would conclude that the sky is green. This is clearly not correct. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

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Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you still don’t know what’s going on in the world. You just know slightly more superficial coverage of the topics du jour that NYTimes, WaPo, etc care to push. It’s worse to read the news and think yourself informed than to be ignorant and know it.

I've found that most people who recognize their ignorance are those who've tried to defeat it.

That’s ridiculous. It doesn’t take an attempt to learn about heart surgery techniques to recognize that you can’t perform or have any meaningful opinions about heart surgery.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it was always impossible, and we're just now finally realizing it? In that case this may be a positive development. But we're just at the beginning of learning how to adapt to it.

> we're just now finally realizing it We're all commenting on a post from 1807 saying the same thing. Maybe it was always impossible, but we think that people used to not realize it. If that's the case, we're definitely not at the beginning and it doesn't bode particularly well.

It's new in the post WWII period though, which was characterized by a few newspapers and TV networks basically holding a consensus, with a bit of wiggle room for debate, but no outlier views. Uncle Walter and all that.
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