The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success • Hacker News Board

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#11

Post by non-entity » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

moksly wrote: post #7

> But there is also the possibility of a worst case that he describes in a chapter titled “Catastrophe.” Suppose that climate change has created an uninhabitable equator. The aging advanced nations cannot sustain their deficit-financed prosperity. The population of Africa continues its rapid growth, resulting in a mass migration into Europe that meets increasing resistance. Reading this reminded me a bit of reading t…

In the long run sure, but that doesn't mean there can't be set backs and temporary regressions.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#12

Post by golergka » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

There's a lot of talk about how civilisation lifecycles lately, and articles, books coming out, and yet one of the best works in this space goes completely unnoticed and unread, it seems, at least in anglosphere: Lev Gumilyov's Ethnogenesis. May be it's because he worked in Soviet Union, where there were not much interaction between historians on different sides of the Iron Curtain, or may be there's still no good translation to English; anyway, if you're interested in these matters, I highly recommend his books and theories.

I'm absolutely not saying that he's right in everything he says, of course — there's plenty of backwards or outright bigoted opinions in his works — but his theory is so unorthodox and interesting that it should at least be an important part of the conversation.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#13

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #3

Well, there's something you don't see very often these days: conservative intellectuals. The old stalwarts of Ross Douthat and the AEI. The problem is though, if you skip ahead to the conclusion: > [T]he only thing more frightening than the possibility of annihilation is the possibility that our society could coast on forever as it is—like a Rome without an Attila to sack its palaces, or a Nineveh without Yahweh to p…

[deleted]

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#14

Post by greesil » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

purple-again wrote: post #4

pjc50 wrote: post #3

Well, there's something you don't see very often these days: conservative intellectuals. The old stalwarts of Ross Douthat and the AEI. The problem is though, if you skip ahead to the conclusion: > [T]he only thing more frightening than the possibility of annihilation is the possibility that our society could coast on forever as it is—like a Rome without an Attila to sack its palaces, or a Nineveh without Yahweh to p…

This comment would make sense on Reddit or twitter “maybe” due to how easy it is to fall into a bubble but on HN? This website regularly features content from conservative intellectuals.

I'm pretty far to the left, but I will say that one thing that's good about HN is that you can discuss an idea here without it getting down voted into the abyss, sometimes. Sometimes people even argue on good faith. Try finding that on Twitter.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#15

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

cf wrote: post #6

pjc50 wrote: post #3

Well, there's something you don't see very often these days: conservative intellectuals. The old stalwarts of Ross Douthat and the AEI. The problem is though, if you skip ahead to the conclusion: > [T]he only thing more frightening than the possibility of annihilation is the possibility that our society could coast on forever as it is—like a Rome without an Attila to sack its palaces, or a Nineveh without Yahweh to p…

You say quaint. To me it seems remarkably out of touch with the real problems Americans face.

A government in the geopolitical landscape is much like an organism in the environment. Evolution is spurred on not by chance, but by selective pressure that prunes out the weak and unstable.

We've entered an era where Mutually Assured Destruction has reduced that selective pressure of superpowers down to nothing. In this environment, power can easily be pulled from citizens and placed into the hands of the autocrats who trust that the chances of being usurped is extremely low. And they're right.

There are social justice issues in the world, sure. But I think this issue of power redistribution is a big issue too.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#16

Post by bluetomcat » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:55 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #2

Eh, I grew up with the faces on TV constantly blabbering about the "decadent West" and yet my country and most of the ex-USSR has deteriorated worse than any western one. My eyes kind of roll every time someone says decadent society as it reminds me of communist propaganda. Not seeing much of those four horsemen, either.

It's an ongoing rhetoric in Russia and much of Eastern Europe. Western issues like gay marriage, feminism, overconsumption, politically-correct language and identity politics are skillfully used by nationalistically-oriented populists to paint a decadent image of the West.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#17

Post by i_haz_rabies » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

moksly wrote: post #7

> But there is also the possibility of a worst case that he describes in a chapter titled “Catastrophe.” Suppose that climate change has created an uninhabitable equator. The aging advanced nations cannot sustain their deficit-financed prosperity. The population of Africa continues its rapid growth, resulting in a mass migration into Europe that meets increasing resistance. Reading this reminded me a bit of reading t…

We've also never had access to the kind of world-changing power we have now. Rome couldn't cause nuclear winter or irreversible climate change.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#18

Post by tremon » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #2

Eh, I grew up with the faces on TV constantly blabbering about the "decadent West" and yet my country and most of the ex-USSR has deteriorated worse than any western one. My eyes kind of roll every time someone says decadent society as it reminds me of communist propaganda. Not seeing much of those four horsemen, either.

Not seeing much of those four horsemen, either

It doesn't take much effort to find current instances of sword, famine, and plague. Only thing missing is the beasts, but maybe that's because we've already hunted them to extinction.

Then again, we've been seeing all four them regularly for over centuries...

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#19

Post by beamatronic » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

Life is a lot easier these days, thanks in no small part to advances in cars. As an American, cars are a central feature of your life. I feel like a large part of my “character building” years was spent struggling with unreliable, old, leaky, carbureted cars. All the energies I spent keeping that thing running could have better spent working or socializing. And yet I have a deep appreciation for what it takes to make a car go and keep it going.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#20

Post by 082349872349872 » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:57 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #2

Eh, I grew up with the faces on TV constantly blabbering about the "decadent West" and yet my country and most of the ex-USSR has deteriorated worse than any western one. My eyes kind of roll every time someone says decadent society as it reminds me of communist propaganda. Not seeing much of those four horsemen, either.

So all the propaganda was true: the decadent West was heading for a cliff, and the USSR not only caught up to it, but indeed even surpassed it.

I suppose any one unhappy with decadence, preferring spectacular instability to stability, a good fight against misfortune to contentment, and struggles with temptation or fatal overthrows by passion is free to become whatever flavour of jihadi they find congenial: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042

David Crosby on how becoming a millionaire changed his life: "you know those pistachios that are hard to open? I don't bother with those anymore."