Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#251

Post by jhanschoo » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

golergka wrote: post #137

hexxiiiz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may make sense for you in particular, but it a lot of people the signal provided by depression is distinct in its persistent alarm about something that isn't really in the present. Listening to the signal and stopping to take stock of it and make changes is often what makes depression so paralyzing, since it is characteristic of it that this doesnt help. Depression for most people is that "stop, stop, rest" happ…

> about something that isn't really in the present Or is it? Therapy, especially gestalt or existential, often makes people realise that something really is off with their outlook on life, relationships with other people or other things like this — something that they had paid no attention to and perceived as "normal", that really wasn't. And in the end, what started as their fight against depression ended up as work…

PTSD among combat vets, for example, can have a person chronically frightful while they live in a safe environment actively preventing them from properly apprehending their current environment. Most people who want to rid themselves of their mental illnesses aren't experiencing it as a signal that their outlook is wrong, their mental illness is actively hampering their ability to properly engage and function in their life.

And for illnesses with a stressor: sometimes a person is not empowered to resolve it.

You shouldn't have too much faith in your own biology, it is far from perfect.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#252

Post by sizzle » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 2:07 AM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #187

kej wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>an approach that involves identifying and releasing traumas, attitudes, behavioural patterns, self-perceptions and defense mechanisms that are held in the subconscious mind Could you elaborate on this part? What does "identifying and releasing" look like, in practice?

This is where discussions about this stuff can go off the rails, as the main modality I've used has links to the chiropractic profession (even though I think that profession is highly dysfunctional and many or even most of its practitioners are quacks at best and frauds at worst). Anyway, the modality I've most used is a technique called NET (neuro-emotional technique), which (I believe) is similar to a practice call…

These sound like awesome techniques to have in your toolkit. Any idea if they've been studied in double blinded evidence based trials on patients for efficacy? We need more tools like this at our disposal for cracking the code on the last frontier that is mental health, in addition to the current shotgun approach of flooding our synapses with neurochemicals via SSRIs.

Also wish I could try psychoactives like Psilocybin which many have had life changing positive responses to.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#253

Post by Pelic4n » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

ColanR wrote: post #121

Pelic4n wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but that attitude is extremely dangerous. Maybe you have a less severe case that's manageable without treatment but that's not the case for everyone. Mania states are actively brain damaging and can blow into full-on psychosis. There is no lifestyle change, diet or essential oil that's going to stop that from happening for folks with a severe bipolar disorder, which is absolutely a disease since it destroys you…

> Spreading such misinformation can lead to people not seeking treatment and getting hurt. Misinformation? Unless you have expert knowledge in that domain - and unless the alternatives podgaj describes have been exhaustively eliminated by a body of peer-reviewed research - you have absolutely no justification to label that as misinformation.

Calling bipolar disorder not a disorder and saying it can be self-treated with lifestyle & diet changes absolutely is misinformation. Ask any psychiatrist.

I do not need a medical degree to say that, in the same way I do not need a medical degree to say that self-treating cancer or any serious illness with diet and lifestyle change is misinformation and dangerous.

These statements taken as face value are incredibly dangerous. I have family relatives that did not seek treatment for psychiatric illnesses (actually diagnosed bipolar disorder) on the basis that it can be self-managed by diet, lifestyle accomodiations and "natural medicine" such as essential oils. They posed a threat not only to themselves, but to their 12/13yo children, almost stabbing them with a kitchen knive during a manic rage episode.

Bipolar disorder is not a difference in executive function, it is a debilitating, life altering illness which can makes the subject a danger to themselves and others if left unchecked.

This kind of misinformation regarding psychiatric illnesses kills.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#254

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 1:15 PM UTC

fnord77 wrote: post #152

dredmorbius wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a leg that remains fractured after a physical shock has passed also maladaptive?

if it doesn't heal in some reasonable amount of time after the trauma and remains fractured indefinitely, then yes.

How do fractures heal without proper medical care?

The "just walk it off" method fares poorly.

Magaret Mead uses this for her exemplar of civilisation foe a reason.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#255

Post by holidayacct » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 2:00 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #142

holidayacct wrote: post #90

Anxiety is a disorder of the nervous system that is a by-product of civilization. We are one of the only mammals that gets anxiety, if you get anxiety in the wild you won't be alive much longer. Depression and PTSD are not responses to adversity. If you face adversity and suffer depression or PTSD you were raised psychologically weak in a way that is dangerous to you. There are people who have survived civil wars, dr…

Addressing only one of your dubious points, there is a considerable scientific literature on anxiety response in animals. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=anxiety%20response%20an...

There are anxiety-like responses in animals but nothing similar to what we consider anxiety in humans. The key take-away is that most of the anxiety behaviors are found in prey animals. Most predators have a social system that removes members from the genetic pool who get anxiety.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#256

Post by 3pt14159 » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 2:05 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #245

3pt14159 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe me, I know what it is to suffer. But even though I lean against suicide strongly since I've lived the whole "if you're going through hell keep going" thing, and the relief when the (years long) suffering is over is immense. However, I struggle with things like a suicide pill given to air force pilots. Would it be better to be tortured for years? To have your family knowing that your fingernails got ripped out…

> However, I struggle with things like a suicide pill given to air force pilots. it does raise an interesting, if morbid question. personally, I think it is fine for someone to kill themselves (or receive assistance in doing so) if they are facing a near certainty of terrible suffering for the rest of their life. the tricky part is the "certainty" bit. many people experience varying degrees of suffering at some point…

Yeah, that is a valid point that I've thought about as well. Though there is also the argument that pilots would be told less critical information if the people commanding them didn't expect them to commit suicide before capture.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#257

Post by Pelic4n » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #120

Pelic4n wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So speaking as someone with adult ADHD who is getting by without medication with the right lifestyle choices How do you do it exactly? Without ADHD medication I can't function on a basic level, and even then it's pretty hard. (Yes that's just ADHD, I tried every antidepressant and mood stabilizer under the sun for years before getting diagnosed with ADHD)

Well, I have the inattentive subtype, without hyperactivity or much of the associated impulsivity. So I guess I'm already in a starting point that is easier to compensate for. I pay a lot of attention to my sleep - I'm a chronic insomniac. And keep in mind that it's not just about sleep time, it's also about sleep quality . So sleep hygiene is really crucial. No caffeine after lunch, and no alcohol in general (unless…

Thanks a lot, this is very good resources. I read the whole thing several times despite having a pretty bad brainfog day.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#258

Post by _ywdj » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #252

_ywdj wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where discussions about this stuff can go off the rails, as the main modality I've used has links to the chiropractic profession (even though I think that profession is highly dysfunctional and many or even most of its practitioners are quacks at best and frauds at worst). Anyway, the modality I've most used is a technique called NET (neuro-emotional technique), which (I believe) is similar to a practice call…

These sound like awesome techniques to have in your toolkit. Any idea if they've been studied in double blinded evidence based trials on patients for efficacy? We need more tools like this at our disposal for cracking the code on the last frontier that is mental health, in addition to the current shotgun approach of flooding our synapses with neurochemicals via SSRIs. Also wish I could try psychoactives like Psilocyb…

Of NET, some small trials by fringe researchers have been conducted [1] (or just planned [2]), but none has had much impact.

This 2017 study [3] seemed to find promising results:

Changes in cerebellar functional connectivity and autonomic regulation in cancer patients treated with the Neuro Emotional Technique for traumatic stress symptoms

...

Results: The results demonstrated significant changes in the NET group, as compared to the control group, in the functional connectivity between the cerebellum (including the vermis) and the amygdala, parahippocampus, and brain stem. Likewise, participants receiving the NET intervention had significant reductions in autonomic reactivity based on heart rate response to the traumatic stimulus compared to the control group.

That result seems to warrant further research, but I can't see it happening at any significant scale.

I've thought/read at length about the state of research into these kinds of modalities, and have concluded that it doesn't and won't happen at scale, due to a combination of these reasons:

- The cost/effort to run a large, controlled trial, including longitudinal research (you'd really need to monitor people over at least 5, but ideally 10+ years to get the best results) would be huge.

- No body with the resources to conduct such a trial is sufficiently motivated to do so, as there's no drug discovery or other outcome that can yield billions of dollars in revenues.

- The chiropractic profession exists at the fringes of medical practice (for generally valid reasons) and is too "hot" for any government or major research institution to want to touch.

The same goes for the work of the researchers I mentioned in other comments; Gabor Maté, Stan/Christina Grof, Peter Levine, Bruce Lipton and others. They've done plenty of qualitative research through their careers, and have written many papers and built solid careers as writers and seminar speakers for sizeable-but-still-niche audiences (of mostly very privileged people with plenty of spare time and money to devote to this kind of healing work). But parlaying that into large-scale studies just never seems feasible, no matter how compelling their findings.

But I think it's profoundly important work, as I'm sure it has the potential to transform the existing psychology/psychiatry fields, so, who knows, maybe something will click one day to make something happen.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nih.gov+neuro-emotional...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2646715/

[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29052102/

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#259

Post by jiggybling » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #246

jiggybling wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example, personal or otherwise?

This is not an anonymous nickname, so I wouldn't be able to give you an honest and full answer.

fair enough

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#260

Post by ISaIF73 » Fri, Sep 04, 2020, 3:28 PM UTC

raducu wrote: post #13

framecowbird wrote: post #4

I'm most surprised to learn that this _isn't_ the current prevailing view in the medical profession. I am not a doctor, but it's always seemed more natural to me to view depression and anxiety as adaptive behaviours - albeit perhaps ones that can end up being triggered too far. I read an article once (wish I could find it) that one advantage of mild depression was as sort a "call for help and support" from other embe…

Because this actually IS the prevailing view, but it is not really actionable. What is the alternative to drugs? A real advantage of depression is you won't challenge authority so you'll be more likely to appease the Alpha members of the group. So what? How would this help a doctor treat a mental health patient?

> What is the alternative to drugs? Another one is lifestyle intervention. Gut problems for example may lead to depression, as gut is an important factor in neurotransmitter production. Metabolic problems will lead to lowered levels of energy. The chronic disease epidemic is real.

Depression may come for many different reasons, and the underlying factor should be looked for