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A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

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Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#41
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> largely (functionally) indistinguishable from a UNIX machine Although they were functionally similar, there were some practical considerations... I will say that path names in unix were a simple and elegant , compared to what VMS used. I recall VMS paths were something like [foo.bar.bletch]something.txt At the time this was a little cumbersome, but looking back it is much worse.

Yeah, hence the “functionally”. SYS$[HOMES](something username) was weird as heck, but it worked largely the same way.

That looks similar to the first OS I used, RISC OS, which had paths like

  ADFS::Symbiote.$.SchoolWork.English.Essay
That's Filesystem::DiskLabel.$.Directory.Another.Filename. There were no file extensions, but there was a file type stored as metadata (I think on the directory node?).

Given a current filesystem and a current disk, just the path from the root ($) directory was needed.

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#42

The complaints here don't seem to be much about how Unix works in a deep way, but rather the particular language/syntax which is used to interact with it ("rm", etc.). While that's certainly annoying in many ways, so are almost all languages in common use. You could write a lot about how horrible English is (or German, as Mark Twain famously did). But English is a useful standard - politics, inertia, and the value of…

You are right. Some other complaints have have no aged well either (especially things like case insignificance, which we all know is extremely difficult to get right once you leave the confines of English).

Unix has a lot of issues on a lower level, but very few people discuss that, since it's a complicated topic.

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#43

> [the name] Grep suggests to me that the author of this one had been reading too much Robert Heinlein (you grok?), or possibly --- and this is in fact quite likely --- was under the influence of psychotropic substances at the time. As funny as this is, the actual origin for "grep" is even more interesting – and, at least to me, quite mnemonic. "grep" comes from ed, and stands for the command "g/re/p", that is global…

"Where GREP Came From" by Brian Kernighan from Computerphile:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTfOnGZUZDk

For those unfamiliar, Kernighan is the "K" in K&R C and the "K" in AWK:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Kernighan

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#44
Pretty much each point raised in this post(?) are correct, current and relevant even 26 years later.

POSIX is a monolith and really deserves to be improved. It's been around forever, yes. It will probably keep on being around forever, yes.

    Take the tar command (please!), which is already a nightmare where lower-case `a' means "check first" and upper-case `A' means "delete all my disk files without asking" (or something like that --- I may not have the details exactly right). In some versions of tar these meanings are reversed. This is a virtue?
Raise your hand if you've never broken Grep because the flags you gave it didn't work. Anyone? Congratulations, you've worked on a single version of grep your entire life. Have a cookie.

Pretty much the only consistent grep flag I know is -i. There's never been a standard for naming and abbreviating flags, which means that for EACH program you will have to learn new flags.

This becomes truly terrible when you get around to, say, git and iptables. Have you ever tried to read git documentation? It is the most useless godawful piece of nonsense this side of the Moon.

There's Google now, which means that the fundamental design issues of POSIX will probably never get issued. "Just google it and paste in from stackoverflow" is already standard, and people are already doing that for 5-10-year-old code/shell commands. What about 10 years from now, will googling best DHCP practices still find that stupid post from 2008 that never got actually resolved? How about 20 years?

I have honestly no idea how to even start fixing the problem. A proper documentation system would be a start.

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#45

"Anyway, have you ever tried to use man? It's fine as long as you know what you are looking for. How would you ever find out the name of command given just the function you wanted to execute? You can't. " One of my gripes with UNIX systems is how opaque they are

man -k

apropos

Are 2 options

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#46
post #32
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In practice I don't think I've ever used it, and when I was a noob I often lamented the lack of a high-level documentation of Linux which would introduce the appropriate man/info pages. It was introduced in 3.0BSD, it's pretty old :). As for usage, while I'm not a native French speaker, I don't think I've heard it used as a noun that often. I can't speak (heh :P) for Canadian speakers of French -- perhaps there are…

Not saying it didn't exist, just saying it's not an introductory high-level Linux user-space documentation. Also not saying apropos is incomprehensible, just that 1 it sounds weird as a Frenchman, 2 there could have been a simpler alternative: “about”.

Lots of Unix commands could have had better names :).

FWIW, though, the noun form is even less uncommon in languages that borrowed the expression from French. In my native language (also a Latin language, so borrowing it was straightforward), its use a noun is very limited. Saying that a book is "full of à-propos" (as in "pleine d’à-propos"), for example, wouldn't mean it's apt, or very relevant, it would mean that it's full of subtle, possibly contrarian or lewd motives. That's more or less how it's used in English, too.

To non-French speakers -- given when apropos showed up, the Unix audience was very American-centric --, who've only heard it used in the other sense, it actually sounds very appropriate, possibly even more appropriate than about, given how apropos (the program) works.

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#47

> [the name] Grep suggests to me that the author of this one had been reading too much Robert Heinlein (you grok?), or possibly --- and this is in fact quite likely --- was under the influence of psychotropic substances at the time. As funny as this is, the actual origin for "grep" is even more interesting – and, at least to me, quite mnemonic. "grep" comes from ed, and stands for the command "g/re/p", that is global…

"Where GREP Came From" by Brian Kernighan from Computerphile: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTfOnGZUZDk For those unfamiliar, Kernighan is the "K" in K&R C and the "K" in AWK: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Kernighan

Great interview with Brian on Lex Fridman's podcast - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9upVbGSBFo

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#48

Pretty much each point raised in this post(?) are correct, current and relevant even 26 years later. POSIX is a monolith and really deserves to be improved. It's been around forever, yes. It will probably keep on being around forever, yes. Take the tar command (please!), which is already a nightmare where lower-case `a' means "check first" and upper-case `A' means "delete all my disk files without asking" (or somethi…

> POSIX is a monolith and really deserves to be improved.

I want it to be improved but I fear it is becoming irrelevant. There are very few OSes left to be compatible with...

Re: A Requiem for a Dying Operating System (1994)

#50

Pretty much each point raised in this post(?) are correct, current and relevant even 26 years later. POSIX is a monolith and really deserves to be improved. It's been around forever, yes. It will probably keep on being around forever, yes. Take the tar command (please!), which is already a nightmare where lower-case `a' means "check first" and upper-case `A' means "delete all my disk files without asking" (or somethi…

Two points about bad documentation:

The documentation (and syntax, or lack thereof) of "tc" are significantly worse than git's. Unfortunately, the network management tool you are supposed to use these days, ip, is made by the same people, though somewhat less bad.

Second, take git documentation with humor: https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/

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