The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take) • Hacker News Board

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#61

Post by usrusr » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #22

> "So they say you can’t close. And I think, well, come and spend your money with me instead, then." You get this all over the small picturesque villages in the UK, people love the idea of village shops and village pubs but few are willing to put any money behind them. Remember my parents remarking that their neighbors where sad the village pub was closing down, my parents thinking its ridiculous because they only se…

Another part of the equation is that in many places the threshold for "viable business" has shifted upwards a lot. It's not just increased rents, also what people expect from life in a very general way. (see also other parts about viable business that close simply because they don't find a successor)

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#62

Post by coldcode » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

kerrsclyde wrote: post #29

Thousands of shops like this must have closed in the UK over the past 20 years. I grew up in neighbouring Leicestershire and in my town we had numerous butchers, greengrocers, fishmongers - much of the produce was sourced locally and sold wrapped in paper / paper bags and we used to walk into town to buy it. Now we drive to buy those goods from a single supermarket, flown in from all corners of the globe and wrapped…

I went to a French baker in Dallas when I lived there, his breads were the most amazing food item I think I ever ate, everything was amazing and made in a very traditional French way. Not sure if its there any more (been 5+ years).

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#63

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

2trill2spill wrote: post #59

Xylakant wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meisterschule does not primarily teach you how to make bread. That’s the part before. It also teaches you how to educate new apprentices, how to run a business, etc. Maybe it’s over regulated, but on the other hand, we require solid education for a lot of professions. As long as the bridge doesn’t collapse, why should we expect an engineer to go through that much education? It’s only math and textbooks are freely ava…

There's a big difference in requiring a doctor or a engineer to have schooling, people could die. But if people eat a crappy loaf of bread who cares?

People could actually die. Food poisoning of all kinds is a thing. Some of the stuff a baker works with is dangerous and flour explosions are a thing. Here’s a case where people died because of flour exploding in a mill: https://150.ngg.net/arbeitsbedingungen/gefahr-am-arbeitsplat...

Edit: Changed example.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#64

Post by jandrese » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

qihqi wrote: post #60

lqet wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only a problem with bakeries or butchers (I also know of two shops here and in my home village who closed down not because business was bad, but because it was so good they retired in their mid-fifties - and nobody wanted to take over). Old restaurants and pubs have the same problem.

hmmm it seems a good opportunity to connect profitable businesses to potential investors that would want to take over?

It would be a valuable service, but there's probably no money in it. Would it be so crazy to put your business up on eBay or some other auction site? Explain how the business works, what the customer base is, what kind of work the owners and staff do every day, make an offer to buy them out so they can retire.

Probably would end up being used mostly by corporations looking for new places to bulldoze and set up a chain location through. Weeding it out to just people with a passion for running an independent small business would be hard.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#65

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

2trill2spill wrote: post #49

Xylakant wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to have what's called "Meisterbrief" to run a bakery. That's the equivalent of having studied. You need 3 years of apprenticeship, then you make what's called "Gesellenprüfung", then you need to work at least 2 years in a bakery and then you need to go back to school for two years. That's quite some effort and it's not lacking formal qualifications. Also, running a bakery is a fairly capital-heavy investment…

From my perspective that seems heavily over regulated. As long as the bread is made in a sanitary fashion and doesn't make people sick, why should a baker be expected to go through so much training/schooling?

[deleted]

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#66

Post by jandrese » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

fxj wrote: post #14

jansan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once talked to a farmer south of Munich who claimed to have documents showing that his farm belonged to his family since the early 12th century. Society must have been really stable there for a long time. Also, he told me that he is very unhappy with high land prices around Munich. He could be a multi-millionaire immediately by selling his land, but his familiy tradition does not allow this. Due to the high land pr…

Japan has the most stable environment for companies. In the list of the oldest 5 worldwide the japanese companies were founded in 578 until 771 AD, which makes them more than 1400 years old! According to a report published by the Bank of Korea in 2008 that looked at 41 countries, there were 5,586 companies older than 200 years. 3,146 (56%) are in Japan 837 (15%) in Germany 222 (4%) in the Netherlands 196 (3%) in Fran…

Japan had some advantages in this regard. Being a fairly small nation it was possible to centrally administer it without the government splintering every couple of decades. Being an island nation meant they were difficult to invade. The final point in their favor was a rigid political hierarchy that discouraged mid-level officials from getting too ambitious unlike Europe.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#67

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

earthboundkid wrote: post #55

Xylakant wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meisterschule does not primarily teach you how to make bread. That’s the part before. It also teaches you how to educate new apprentices, how to run a business, etc. Maybe it’s over regulated, but on the other hand, we require solid education for a lot of professions. As long as the bridge doesn’t collapse, why should we expect an engineer to go through that much education? It’s only math and textbooks are freely ava…

Watching doctors google stuff really makes you worry about the medical equivalent of StackOverflow code.

We all do google stuff. The part that requires training is knowing what to google for and how to interpret the results.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#68

Post by 2trill2spill » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #63

2trill2spill wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference in requiring a doctor or a engineer to have schooling, people could die. But if people eat a crappy loaf of bread who cares?

People could actually die. Food poisoning of all kinds is a thing. Some of the stuff a baker works with is dangerous and flour explosions are a thing. Here’s a case where people died because of flour exploding in a mill: https://150.ngg.net/arbeitsbedingungen/gefahr-am-arbeitsplat... Edit: Changed example.

That's why I said in my original post as long as the bread is made in a sanitary fashion. You can have health codes and food safety without requiring years of school. And your final point of flour exploding, that's a issue for flour mills not little bakeries. Most of the world does not require such extensive training to become a baker as Germany and the rest of the world is doing just fine.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#69

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

2trill2spill wrote: post #68

Xylakant wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People could actually die. Food poisoning of all kinds is a thing. Some of the stuff a baker works with is dangerous and flour explosions are a thing. Here’s a case where people died because of flour exploding in a mill: https://150.ngg.net/arbeitsbedingungen/gefahr-am-arbeitsplat... Edit: Changed example.

That's why I said in my original post as long as the bread is made in a sanitary fashion. You can have health codes and food safety without requiring years of school. And your final point of flour exploding, that's a issue for flour mills not little bakeries. Most of the world does not require such extensive training to become a baker as Germany and the rest of the world is doing just fine.

The example page I picked is the workplace safety page of the union responsible food processing, bakeries among other things. And it explicitly list flour explosions as the largest danger in bakeries: “In Bäckereien und Mühlen sind Mehlstauexplosionen die größten Gefahren.“ (translated: “In bakeries and mills, flour explosions are the biggest dangers.”). A flour explosion in a bakery is something every local fire department trains for - and they’re not doing that for fun.

Re: The butcher's shop that lasted 300 years (give or take)

#70

Post by mlyle » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 7:57 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #50

2trill2spill wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my perspective that seems heavily over regulated. As long as the bread is made in a sanitary fashion and doesn't make people sick, why should a baker be expected to go through so much training/schooling?

Meisterschule does not primarily teach you how to make bread. That’s the part before. It also teaches you how to educate new apprentices, how to run a business, etc. Maybe it’s over regulated, but on the other hand, we require solid education for a lot of professions. As long as the bridge doesn’t collapse, why should we expect an engineer to go through that much education? It’s only math and textbooks are freely ava…

IMO, how much regulation there should be has to do with the potential risks.

Food preparation is food preparation, and the practices needed to make food safely do not require years of education (and are proactively ensured by inspections everywhere in the developed world). So that risk can be crossed off the list easily.

Other risks? That the bread tastes bad, or that the business will not be run profitably? Those risks are better borne by the person investing their capital and labor, rather than trying to protect people from themselves through more education.