Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807) • Hacker News Board

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#51

Post by clairity » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

smolder wrote: post #29

This of course has echoes in the present. I think the public may not be better informed/closer to the truth than 20 years ago, but not much worse either. A lot of things probably just weren't widely reported or could stay under the radar before the internet and social media took over. Now when "undesirable news" inevitably gets out, it has to be countered with contradictory narratives and misinformation. It's gotten…

> "It's gotten to the point that aligning yourself politically one way or the other implies you must adopt a volume of their favored fiction in addition to a shared interpretation of the real facts."

being truly independent is a lonely row to hoe in my experience. nobody likes or trusts you, because you're not all in on their side. despite this very real cost, more and more people are adopting an indepedent stance, which i find hopeful.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#52

Post by wwright » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #20

mrfusion wrote: post #8

As an exercise, go read the front page of cnn.com right now. Do you still believe all of it?

How CNN currently works: if (makesTrumpLookBad() || makesBidenLookGood()) pushToFrontPage(); else if (recentDeadPerson.skinColor != 'white' && recentDeadPerson.causeOfDeath == 'police') pushToFrontPage(); else pushToFrontPage(numNewCovidCases(getRandomState())) Apply DeMorgan's Law to see how Fox News works.

Fox News is certainly much worse than this. They habitually and regularly post actual fake news. Of course, they do have real news mixed in there; otherwise the strategy wouldn't work.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#53

Post by TT3351 » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #25

When I was 15, there was a bus bombing near my school. A kid in my class was the grandson of a well known politician. A newspaper ran with a completely made up story about how it was his bus line, and how the grandfather had panicked. A few days later a fact checker called his mom. Not sure if they ran a retraction. It seemed incredibly disrespectful to those who were on the bus. Two died. About a year after that, so…

TJ: A newspaper should be divided into four sections (truths, probabilities, possibilities, and lies) https://jacklimpert.com/2017/02/newspaper-divided-four-secti...

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#54

Post by clairity » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

liability wrote: post #38

intotheabyss wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression that cnn.com looks like an entertainment site, not a news site.

This version of their site has less visual clutter and flashy graphics: http://lite.cnn.com/en Spoilers, it's still shit. The biggest problem with CNN is the shitty writing. CNN articles seem to be written for an audience of borderline illiterate idiots. Do yourself a favor and read the NYTimes instead. The biases there are basically the same, you're getting the mainstream American centrist take on things, with the d…

no, the nytimes is no better overall. they still have some good longer-form investigative pieces, but that's probably <1% of their volume. the rest is the same slanted, stimulant filler (corona all the time!) as other outlets.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#55

Post by quacked » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

A primary concern with "the news" is that it has no incentive to be correct, especially when it is reporting on predictions. Consider a situation where a respected economist releases a report that predicts a high likelihood of economic recession. "The news" will circulate something like "HIGH PROBABILITY OF RECESSION, SAYS FAMED ECONOMIST". The impending recession will be the talk of the people for the next several weeks.

If the recession arrives, "the news" will report on the economic bloodbath, credit itself for reporting on the prediction of the recession in a timely manner, and give itself awards for accuracy in reporting.

If the recession does not arrive, "the news" will report on the surprising market strength and why economists predicted the future incorrectly, credit itself for reporting on the inaccuracy of our once-great financial system, and give itself awards for accuracy in reporting.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#56

Post by mensetmanusman » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

“ I will add, that the man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them; inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. “

This is the best quote, because they sensed to be true what we now know is true for pew research data. The more you watch and read the news, the more likely you are to be less informed about the state of things.

This is obviously the case when you recognize that the media focuses on the long tail of interesting topics. The average is never interesting enough to sell clicks/papers, so the entire focus is on outlier events (this is how Trump got focused on and eventually elected).

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#57

Post by tgb » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

goodluckchuck wrote: post #35

anchpop wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on cnn.com, these are the biggest headlines > Trump suggests voters should commit fraud > Bill Barr's indefensible defense of 2020 voter fraud > Officers covered a Black man's head before he stopped breathing, video shows > Dr. Fauci says it's conceivable but not likely a vaccine will be ready in October The only one I think is questionable is the second, but even that one doesn't seem like it contains factual inaccu…

Ugh... Even CNN admits that the following headline is a lie... Let's follow the rabbit trail: > Trump suggests voters should commit fraud The source that article links is another one of CNN's own articles: > Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system The first paragraph of that article then gets closer to the truth: > President Donald Trump on Wednesday appeared to encourage people…

The video in the tweet you link to is explicitly as in the headline: Trump tells people to mail in a ballot and then to go vote in person. He repeats it multiple times and is very clear that the "check" is done by them attempting to actually vote, not merely asking to confirm the ballot was received. I had really assumed it would be much more ambiguous than this from the headlines.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#58

Post by loughnane » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

This dovetails with something I've been thinking much about recently: providing a classical education, or at least a dose of it, to my kids. Jefferson was a big proponent of this as well [0]

My reasoning is that there are few other venues that young people, in their formative years, encounter such examples of deep critical thinking. I used to think it snobbery to reference Socrates/Plato/Aristotle, etc. But reading the Republic, Apology, Ethics, etc. really prompts you to think about your life and how it relates to other in a society in a very meaningful way. It also teaches you to be more critical of all ideas.

It seems to me that such perspectives are more important now than they've ever been. Jefferson and others have espoused the idea that an educated populace is required for a functioning democracy. While that may have been true in the 18th century, it is certainly more poignant in a world where people have an instant and unending stream of comment and opinion coming to them wherever they are.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_education...

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#59

Post by libraryatnight » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #54

liability wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This version of their site has less visual clutter and flashy graphics: http://lite.cnn.com/en Spoilers, it's still shit. The biggest problem with CNN is the shitty writing. CNN articles seem to be written for an audience of borderline illiterate idiots. Do yourself a favor and read the NYTimes instead. The biases there are basically the same, you're getting the mainstream American centrist take on things, with the d…

no, the nytimes is no better overall. they still have some good longer-form investigative pieces, but that's probably <1% of their volume. the rest is the same slanted, stimulant filler (corona all the time!) as other outlets.

I don't mind the times reporting when they're reporting, I just have to push my way through tons of bait-y opinion headlines to get to it.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#60

Post by dublin » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

gxqoz wrote: post #15

By the American Revolution, newspapers were getting closer to our modern perception of them. But for the hundreds of years between their ostensible invention in Germany and the late 18th century they were quite different. Many only reported foreign news (in part to avoid domestic topics that may have been more sensitive). They offered very little in terms of editorial. In France, one particularly dull one was granted…

Fake News is far more common than people think (not just the Gell-Mann effect, but that helps...) I quit trusting anything I saw in the media in 1998, when my wife and I saw NBC totally faking a hurricane report in Corpus Christi. The reporter was in a rain slicker, and there was a lackey standing off-camera with a hose spraying water. Corpus was on the dry side of a hurricane deep in the Gulf that wound up hitting near Yucatan - winds were up, but there wasn't a cloud for 400 miles. Fake News then, even faker news now.