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NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

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Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#31
It's worth noting that if a propellentless drive works, it will probably generate free energy. This may adjust your expectations on how likely this idea is. How likely is a free energy device (ie, one that reliably gives you more energy out than you put in)? Well, this thruster can't be any more likely, because it would produce free energy.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1506.00494

> the kinetic energy of a mass with a constant force applied will increase with the square of time, while the electrical energy input only increases linearly with time. A mass with such a drive attached would eventually have a kinetic energy greater than the energy input.

...

> For example, an evacuated track 10km long and supplied with 1 GW of power that is fed via induction along the track to a 100 kg mass equipped with an EM drive would result in the mass experiencing an acceleration of 4000 m/s2(i.e., 407 g’s) and having a velocity of 8.94 km/s at the end of the track, at which point the mass would have a kinetic energy of 4 GJ. The time to accelerate the mass is only 2.23 seconds,however, so the energy input required is only 2.23 GJ. At the end of the track, the mass could be decelerated via regenerative braking, generating more energy out (4 GJ) than was input (2.23 GJ), for a net gain of 1.76 GJ free energy.

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#32
post #16

From the article: > Mike McDonald, an aerospace engineer at the Naval Research Laboratory in Maryland, will be among the first [attempt to replicate their results]. He leads an internal program for independently testing advanced propulsion systems, which has previously shot down promising results from the EmDrive.

There might be such a place, although it’s more likely they’re trying to refer to the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC.

The U.S Naval Research Laboratory also has several facilities in MD. Including at Patuxent River, Chesapeake Beach and Blossom Point. Given the nature of the work I would guess it is referring to the facility at Blossom Point.

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#34

> On a clear night in March 1967, Woodward was stargazing on the rooftop of Pensión Santa Cruz, a hotel in the heart of Seville, in Spain.... As Woodward gazed up from atop his Spanish hotel, he saw a speck of light arcing across the sky and mentally calculated its path. But as he watched the satellite, it began deviating from its expected trajectory—first by a little and then by a lot. > Everything Woodward knew abo…

Or a bird. Less high up, nice white tummy, reflects the light.

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it has all the signs, just like EM drive did, of being experimental error. that is just realism.

Did the EMdrive have a solid understanding of why it would work, rather than just being a discovered curious effect? What's interesting about this one is that there is a theory at least. Experiments aside, someone whould be able to either confirm or reject the theory on its own.

The EMdrive also had a "why." Note, if you investigate these sorts of devices, they typically have a why. It's just that the why tends to ignore a bunch of other things and it's a disappointment in the end.

Really, if you're curious, you should dig into the history of all kinds of devices like these, anything in the Impossible Class. The inventor spends decades grinding away at it, getting inconsistent, odd little results which are just tantalizing enough to keep them stumbling forward.

I have often considered a taxonomy of these sorts of enterprises, with three orthogonal systems of reckoning. The first, a type really, is what principle is being violated (Second Law of Thermodynamics, Newton's Third ...). The second is psychological: misunderstanding, self-deception, or duplicity (typically to bilk inventors), with the understanding that the inventor typically starts with misunderstanding and proceeds onward. The third would, finally, be the discovered actual source of the odd results, which could be bad experimental design, not accounting for oddly-radiating services, vibration, friction, and so forth.

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#36
post #5

So much hate in the comments. Have some hope, people.

People don't like to see quack science take funding from legitimate science. I am not qualified to judge whether or not this is quack science, but it certainly reeks of the same claims as previously documented quack science.

Even more than the funding, I hate the perpetual fueling of the narrative that magic is just around the corner. Why bother learning actual, boring science when a revolution is going to make everything different tomorrow, bringing us flying cars and gorgeous green Martian girls in steel bikinis?

There's an enormous amount of science denial, at least in the United States. A lot of things go into that, but I don't think it helps that stories like this present scientists as wedded to orthodoxy and general killjoys who hate imaginative iconoclasts. Instead, people lurch from one self-styled Galileo to another, as they fade from view without even reading the confirmation that their work was wrong.

Meantime, science produces a steady stream of advances both fundamental and practical. And those are taken for granted, unless scientists something you don't want to believe, when they can be presented as scientists are in stories like this.

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#37

It's worth noting that if a propellentless drive works, it will probably generate free energy . This may adjust your expectations on how likely this idea is. How likely is a free energy device (ie, one that reliably gives you more energy out than you put in)? Well, this thruster can't be any more likely, because it would produce free energy. https://arxiv.org/abs/1506.00494 > the kinetic energy of a mass with a const…

Not precisely free; it moves energy around(1) by interacting with the inertial mass of other objects in the galaxy and applying force to them at a distance (the details of how, which objects, and how much force, at least in the Wikipedia summary, are really sparse).

In theory, if we could run an unbreakable string from Earth to Mars and twist it around a spindle, the differing orbits of Earth and Mars would pull that string taut and that string yanking the spindle around would generate energy that wasn't "free," but (like solar) would be free for all practical purposes. Do too much of it, and Mars crashes into Earth of course, but there's a LOT of energy that could be siphoned off from the planets' different velocities before something like that happened.

It's the same kind of "free" spacecraft get making a gravity-assist maneuver; they slow (or speed up) the orbit of the body they're assisting off of imperceptibly.

(1) ... of course hypothetically. The details of the mechanism are not well-understood and appear mostly theoretical.

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#38

Interesting caveat about traveling close to the speed of light...if you run into hydrogen atoms, which is near 100% likely, your ship violently explodes because at very high speeds, there is a huge reaction on tiny matter collisions. I just learned this and it was like learning that sound doesn't travel in space when I was young and ruined many a starwars movie effects. I keep learning how ignorant and dumb I am the…

Interstellar ships will be shaped like pencils to deflect rather than impact gasses. They will also have to have consumable nose cone sections with old ones in the front being removed and new ones installed at that back. Like a mechanical pencil.

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#39

Interesting caveat about traveling close to the speed of light...if you run into hydrogen atoms, which is near 100% likely, your ship violently explodes because at very high speeds, there is a huge reaction on tiny matter collisions. I just learned this and it was like learning that sound doesn't travel in space when I was young and ruined many a starwars movie effects. I keep learning how ignorant and dumb I am the…

Isn't it vanishingly unlikely to ever encounter one particle in interstellar space?

Re: NASA Funded Scientists Claim Breakthrough in Propellantless Propulsion

#40

It's worth noting that if a propellentless drive works, it will probably generate free energy . This may adjust your expectations on how likely this idea is. How likely is a free energy device (ie, one that reliably gives you more energy out than you put in)? Well, this thruster can't be any more likely, because it would produce free energy. https://arxiv.org/abs/1506.00494 > the kinetic energy of a mass with a const…

> [..] while the electrical energy input only increases linearly with time.

This is the fallacy. In an electric motor the power required to exert a force is proportional to the speed, so if you want to keep the acceleration constant you need to increase the electrical power (i.e. rate of energy use) linearly over time. Hence the total energy input increases with the square of the time, just like the kinetic energy imparted. If the system is 100% efficient then the total electrical energy used will be equal to the kinetic energy of the mass.

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